Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

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Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

I created this separated topic for "Züge" as it seems to be an interesting word on itself.
Original topic: The so called clues, which supposedly come from Bessler

helloha wrote:
  • is the word "pulleys" a correct translation from the original text ?
ovaron wrote:
  • No, it isn't correct.
    Bessler spoke of cables (chains, cable puls, ropes) but not of pulleys.
ME wrote:
  • For those who would like an alternative view:
    Bessler wrote:Denn wenn ich mache hier bereits
    In ein Werck gleichsam nur ein Creuz/
    So wird man es ganz langsam sehen
    Kaum von sich selber herum drehen;

    hingegen/ wenn ich zugericht´t
    Viel Creuze/ Züge und Gewicht´/
    So kan das Werck viel schneller lauffen/
    Wirfft Wagners Rechnung übern Hauffen
    My previous translation was horrible, here's a second attempt:
    Marchello wrote:Suppose I'm going to create
    some object just alike a cross/
    you'll see it go quite slow
    and barely able to spin itself around;

    However/ when I could appoint
    many crosses/ Züge and weights /
    As such this object can run much faster/
    Messing-up Wagner's calculations even more

    Marchello's Dictionary Services

    According to my dictionary in search of "Züge":

    NL::Teug = DE::Zug,Schluck = EN::Gulp up, Swallow
    NL::Zucht = DE::ein Atem-zug, ein: haugh, ein Windhaugh = EN::breathing, inhalation
    NL::Teugel = DE::Zügel = EN::Reins (<-- meant by Daan?)
    NL::Trek = DE::Zug = EN: to yank, tug, jerk (and similar derivatives)
    NL::Trek, Lust, Honger = DE::Zug, Lust, Hunger = EN::Desire, Lust, Hunger
    NL::Trekken/Gezichtstrek = DE::Gezichtszug = EN::Facial feature
    NL::Karaktertrek = DE::Charakterzug = EN::character trait
    NL::Trein = DE::Zug, Züge = EN::train
    NL::Katrol/takel = DE::Flaschenzug, Zugwinde, Zugrolle, Trieze = EN::Pulley, tackle

    What Stewart thinks: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... =zug#48996

    What I personally think of it

    I think a "train" in Bessler's case only makes sense in a 'coupled' or 'successive' way, like: a train of thoughts; or "train" as in "training" as in repetition.
    Perhaps interesting to ponder: A train is the combined occurrence of coupled wagons where one pulls the rest. So it should at least come in one pair of wagons.
    So "Züge" could be "pull", it could be "pulley", it could be one cross(-bar) pulling some other cross(-bar).

    Whatever one makes of it, I think Bessler's text just shows a singular mechanism should be able to work on itself, albeit poorly.
    Thus many construction/cross(bars) in succession (at spaced out locations) with as many stacked weights as wanted or needed - simply works better: The cumulative nature of Torque.

    So with this it seems to me that "cross(bars)", "pulleys" and even "Wagner" are not the most important messages (perhaps they still are in some other sense).
    And I currently think the most interesting part is: DE::"Das kan viel schneller" - EN::"That could go much faster".
    Interesting because the indication of Torque and Weight and More things (crossbars) should naturally lead to a description indicating More "Power" and not More "Speed" per se (as Bessler did anyway), so apparently "speed" it is.
    - We could infer that smoothness of operation (coming from the successive actions of properly aligned multiple mechanisms) automatically leads to more power, or the shorter message: Speed implies Power.
helloha wrote:
  • from: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 756#150756
    ----<snip>----
    As there are a lot of other alternative words associated with "Züge",
    I would suggest at least find out what's the most common definition of "Züge" during Bessler period.

    And what is "trains" during Bessler era, I don't think modern train exist in his timeline, could it be carriage or trailer sort-of vehicles ?
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

The main reason for this topic: I just found this (in search of "train"). Haven't read in its entirety, but looks multi-level interesting.

Here are some samples

CHAPTER I. OF SENSE
  • Concerning the Thoughts of man, I will consider them first Singly, and afterwards in Trayne, or dependance upon one another. Singly, they are every one a Representation or Apparence, of some quality, or other Accident of a body without us; which is commonly called an Object. Which Object worketh on the Eyes, Eares, and other parts of mans body; and by diversity of working, produceth diversity of Apparences.
    ...
CHAPTER II. OF IMAGINATION
  • That when a thing lies still, unlesse somewhat els stirre it, it will lye still for ever, is a truth that no man doubts of. But that when a thing is in motion, it will eternally be in motion, unless somewhat els stay it, though the reason be the same, (namely, that nothing can change it selfe,) is not so easily assented to. For men measure, not onely other men, but all other things, by themselves: and because they find themselves subject after motion to pain, and lassitude, think every thing els growes weary of motion, and seeks repose of its own accord; little considering, whether it be not some other motion, wherein that desire of rest they find in themselves, consisteth. From hence it is, that the Schooles say, Heavy bodies fall downwards, out of an appetite to rest, and to conserve their nature in that place which is most proper for them; ascribing appetite, and Knowledge of what is good for their conservation, (which is more than man has) to things inanimate absurdly.
    When a Body is once in motion, it moveth (unless something els hinder it) eternally; and whatsoever hindreth it, cannot in an instant, but in time, and by degrees quite extinguish it: And as wee see in the water, though the wind cease, the waves give not over rowling for a long time after; so also it happeneth in that motion, which is made in the internall parts of a man, then, when he Sees, Dreams, &c. For after the object is removed, or the eye shut, wee still retain an image of the thing seen, though more obscure than when we see it. And this is it, that Latines call Imagination, from the image made in seeing; and apply the same, though improperly, to all the other senses. But the Greeks call it Fancy; which signifies Apparence, and is as proper to one sense, as to another. Imagination therefore is nothing but Decaying Sense; and is found in men, and many other living Creatures, as well sleeping, as waking.
CHAPTER III. OF THE CONSEQUENCE OR TRAYNE OF IMAGINATIONS
  • By Consequence, or Trayne of Thoughts, I understand that succession of one Thought to another, which is called (to distinguish it from Discourse in words) Mentall Discourse.
    When a man thinketh on any thing whatsoever, His next Thought after, is not altogether so casuall as it seems to be. Not every Thought to every Thought succeeds indifferently. But as wee have no Imagination, whereof we have not formerly had Sense, in whole, or in parts; so we have no Transition from one Imagination to another, whereof we never had the like before in our Senses. The reason whereof is this. All Fancies are Motions within us, reliques of those made in the Sense: And those motions that immediately succeeded one another in the sense, continue also together after Sense: In so much as the former comming again to take place, and be praedominant, the later followeth, by coherence of the matter moved, is such manner, as water upon a plain Table is drawn which way any one part of it is guided by the finger. But because in sense, to one and the same thing perceived, sometimes one thing, sometimes another succeedeth, it comes to passe in time, that in the Imagining of any thing, there is no certainty what we shall Imagine next; Onely this is certain, it shall be something that succeeded the same before, at one time or another.
Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes
1651

Source: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3207/3207-h/3207-h.htm


What makes this more interesting:
Principia, is a work in three books by Isaac Newton, in Latin, first published 5 July 1687.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

Oh darn yes, forgot this one....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_physics

At least we've got trains, or "traynes".
Last edited by ME on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Furcurequs »

Here's an entry from an 1802 edition of a German/English dictionary:

Image

Zug, ber - drawing, pull

It looks like "Züge" is the plural?

A compleat English-German, German-English dictionary: German-English part
By Johann Georg Christian Fick

https://books.google.com/books?id=bQnVA ... 22&f=false

Here are some other examples using "Zug"


https://books.google.com/books?id=bQnVA ... 22&f=false

...including this one

Image

funeral drawing? funeral pull?

"funeral train"
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ovaron »

Considering that Bessler was also an organ builder, he repeatedly pointed out in his apologia that he could not have found the PM without this art, the most probable translation of "Zug, Züge" is rope or cable etc. and not pulley or train.
"Zug" in connection with an organ can be translated also as stop knop. Http://www.dict.cc/english-german/%5BRe ... pf%5D.html
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Furcurequs »

That's about how I would understand it. Where the example of "funeral train" would be thought of more as a funeral procession than necessarily a train of carts or wagons.

One of the examples in that dictionary that used "zug" was "wire drawing."

Pulling wire or pulling to make wire?

...a cable pull... ...a rope to pull...

...or with the organ example... ...a pull knob.
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Post by ME »

So "Zug" is about pulling the same in sequence (the puller and pullee: --> pulley) ?

In case of an organ there's a possible related:
NL::Tocht = DE::"Windzug" = EN::breeze, air draught
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Furcurequs »

This etymology site might be useful for this sort of stuff:
zugzwang (n.)
1904, in chess, from German Zugzwang, literally "move-compulsion," from Zug "move (in chess), a drawing, pulling, a stretch," from Old High German ziohan "to pull," from Proto-Germanic *teuhan, from PIE root *deuk- "to lead" (see duke (n.)).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0
pulley (n.)
late 13c., from Old French polie, pulie "pulley, windlass" (12c.) and directly from Medieval Latin poliva, puliva, probably from Medieval Greek *polidia, plural of *polidion "little pivot," diminutive of Greek polos "pivot, axis" (see pole (n.2)). As a verb from 1590s.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Furcurequs »

If you look at some of the entries in that old German dictionary, "zug" was also used like "draught."
draught (n.)
c. 1200, from Old English *dreaht, *dræht, related to dragan "to draw, drag" (see drag (v.)). Oldest sense besides that of "pulling" is of "drinking." It retains the functions that did not branch off with draft (q.v.).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... ch=draught

There are lots of interesting things at that link. So, "zug" is also related to moving, dragging, drawing of water, drawing of air, gulping, draught...
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Furcurequs »

If I search Google Books for "zuge" and "pulley," it turns up some interesting things.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&h ... uge+pulley

I've seen the following associated with the English "pulley."

nzug ...from the first German/English dictionary I posted

Zugrolle and zugwinde referring to a pulley from an 1820 German/English dictionary:

Image

https://books.google.com/books?id=gEYZA ... ppet&q=zug

Flaschenzug referring to a pulley from an 1880 German/English dictionary.

Image

https://books.google.com/books?id=9PcVA ... pet&q=zuge

I think the "-züge" means that the plural of the word is Flaschenzüge. Is that what the "-pl" means here?

I hope I'm not misinterpreting that. I'd be happy for anyone to correct me there if I'm wrong.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

Yes, it was included in the first-post dictionary list.

I left "Flasche" out when I copied my post from the other topic:
NL::Fles = DE::Flasche = EN::Bottle, flask (from "flaschenzug": I think not 'flash' related, if one wondered, unless containing quicksilver(?) - - I'm fairly sure "Flasche" is the name of the block containing the rollers)


It's possible Bessler didn't really care what shape it had:
  • In ein Werck gleichsam nur ein Creuz/
    One single work/thing just as though a cross
Then perhaps "Züge" is just as meaningful as a consecutive game-"move", each shape just applies it's own move or motion.
  • Viel Creuze/ Züge und Gewicht´/
    Many shapes/ motions and weights

usually:
m - male form (der)
f - female form (die)
n - noun
pl - plural
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by helloha »

ME wrote:A train is the combined occurrence of coupled wagons where one pulls the rest.
While checking out on wagon, came across this circle of wagons, this can be used for the outline of the wheel
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Post by ME »

:-)
That's a plain Dutch word where I meant railroad-car...
But that use of "wagon" relates more to this post --> http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 208#150208
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by helloha »

Just use the image of the wheel diagram and trace the wagons and crosses over it :)
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by daanopperman »

Hi ME ,

The second paragraph , last word , must have something in common with " zuge "

The word you attributed to me was the one I was thinking of , in Afrikaans it would be " tuig "
I addressed ME but for all .
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