Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

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Fcdriver
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Post by Fcdriver »

How many different leverage points on the pendulum did you try with this? How many different timings did you try?
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by rlortie »

Grimer,

If your going to pursue Bessler's depiction of the pendulum, may I suggest you complete the picture.

Lengthen the crossbar and add the dampener weights. Make sure they balance, either by mass or leverage distance from pendulum axis. If properly balanced there will be little expense in energy to move them. The weight is transferred to ground via the supporting stanchion and you gain all the inertia and kinetic potential gained from the mass in motion (angular momentum).

Another thought that comes to mind; the horseshoe crank that I have mentioned before allowing for close tolerance by bending may also be pliable enough to act as a spring or shock absorber allowing for a smoother transition when swing direction changes.

Is not dynamic inertia, kinetic energy and angular momentum for this purpose not one and the same?

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Post by Grimer »

Fcdriver wrote:How many different leverage points on the pendulum did you try with this? How many different timings did you try?
I propose to work through all the variables available.

You will note that with the previous video the last over the top cycle looks promising. The weight just manages to stagger to the top of its penultimate 360° before beginning its last fall. It then comes as close to completing the circle as I have ever managed with a single pendulum.
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Re: re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Grimer »

rlortie wrote:Grimer,

If your going to pursue Bessler's depiction of the pendulum, may I suggest you complete the picture.

Lengthen the crossbar and add the dampener weights. Make sure they balance, either by mass or leverage distance from pendulum axis. If properly balanced there will be little expense in energy to move them. The weight is transferred to ground via the supporting stanchion and you gain all the inertia and kinetic potential gained from the mass in motion (angular momentum).

Another thought that comes to mind; the horseshoe crank that I have mentioned before allowing for close tolerance by bending may also be pliable enough to act as a spring or shock absorber allowing for a smoother transition when swing direction changes.

Is not dynamic inertia, kinetic energy and angular momentum for this purpose not one and the same?

Ralph
Thanks for your suggestions. I like the one about the spring - I hadn't thought of that.

Incidentally, if anyone thinks this approach has promise and thinks they can beat me to a solution I welcome the competition and will be happy to supply any details they might require.

Also, I can see that the basic wheel provides an excellent rig for testing a whole range of different approaches. I'm starting off with the Bessler "pendulum" in case this is his solution hidden in plain sight.

I find it very odd that none of the witnesses mention anything like the external pendulums shown in the drawings.
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Post by Fcdriver »

The small crank distance of lift or loading from the drawings implies the pendulum could have moved in a very different motion. The range of motion top and crank do not match.
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Grimer »

Grimer wrote:I've managed to work out how to take a video with my HTC mobile that one of my sons passed on to me. I know the quality is crap but I'm not trying to win an Oscar but merely to illustrate some dynamic phenomena with the wheel.

https://vid.me/zzt1

As you can see, I've reinstalled the motor. I did this because it was difficult to get a smooth action by hand. I presume the jerkiness of the video is down to interference between the motion of the wheel and the frame rate of the video.

I want to draw attention to the effect of friction between the fixed pod axles and the pods. The pod axles are rotating once every revolution of the wheel whereas the pods are attempting to remain horizontal under the action of NG.

However the action of friction between the pod axles and the pods has the effect of tilting the pods nose down in the counterclockwise direction of motion. It is as though evil Ersatz gravity has enlisted the axles as secret agents to push the pods from the NG boundary where the orientation of the pods is horizontal towards its own boundary where their orientation will be radial.

Now moving towards an intermediate stage between the two boundaries is good because sure as God made little green apples we are not going to get PM if we remain stuck at the boundaries.

However friction is bad since this leads to energy escaping from the system as heat.

So, how can we retain the intermediate state without loss of energy?

...
I think I've seen something significant.

If we replace the V component with a simple pendulum arm to provide a restoring force counteracting the friction, then the locus of that pendulum bob is the same as the locus of the rim masses in the Rubber Band Motor (RBM).

Irrespective of whether the RBM is potentially a true gravity motor (my contention) or dependent on the input of heat energy (the conventional view) we know the motor is dependent on the displacement of the CG of the rim mass to provide the continuous torque driving the RBM.

Furthermore, if we replace the friction with a string to the centre axle circumference then the deflected pendulum is providing a continuous moment to the centre axle which can be balanced by raising a weight; by doing work in other words.

I'll draw up a diagram....

... and here it is:

Image
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Re: re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Fcdriver »

Grimer wrote:https://vid.me/85NJ

I haven't attempted to tune it yet but you can see the general idea.

The falling weight puts energy into the pendulum from the wheel on the down stroke which is given back to the wheel from the pendulum on the upstroke.


Enlarge
"No. 51: This is a perpendicular invention which is meant to maintain motion by means of oscillation. A is a perpendicular with stoppers, or stop-cones, at the top which catch in a small wheel B. A fastens onto the wheel E. D show the perpendicular per se with stop-cones. H is a horizontal perpendicular, or beam of a balance. H moves by means of the curved implement I on the one side and the perpendicular F at G on the other side. Motion by means of the oscillation of H is expected, but the invention is wisely criticized. "
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Fcdriver »

Enlarge
"No. 51: This is a perpendicular invention which is meant to maintain motion by means of oscillation. A is a perpendicular with stoppers, or stop-cones, at the top which catch in a small wheel B. A fastens onto the wheel E. D show the perpendicular per se with stop-cones. H is a horizontal perpendicular, or beam of a balance. H moves by means of the curved implement I on the one side and the perpendicular F at G on the other side. Motion by means of the oscillation of H is expected, but the invention is wisely criticized. "
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Grimer »

Thanks for that FCD.

Drawing 51 certainly has analogies with Bessler's pendulum. The main difference is that Bessler's pendulum is relatively much longer.

However, I have now realised that the Milkovic apparatus is the boundary case with the weight having a centre of rotation at infinity.

Also, the mass distribution of the wheel is at one boundary (uniform mass all round) whereas mine is at the opposite boundary. Mass concentrated at one spot. A 360° pendulum in other words.

How was Bessler's mass distributed? That is hidden from us.

I have therefore designed a Milkovic on steroids which I am investigating.
I'll give full details and rationale later.

Results look promising so far.

More importantly the theory and the maths seem to make sense.
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Grimer »

From 25th March 2015, 9:10 am Post subject: re: Bessler's secret
Grimer wrote:Thinking again about the diagram attached below, I think that when Bessler talked about having to know how to lift 4 pounds with 1 pound he must have been referring to the Ersatz Gravity (EG) component of a swinging weight.

If the weight is swung through the angle shown in the diagram then at the nadir (the 6 o'clock position) you will have a force of the order of four times the Newtonian Gravity (NG) of the mass. This will lift a weight, albeit momentarily four times the weight (the Newtonian gravitational force) of the swinging mass.
Image
Its rather interesting that the above diagram from the last page of Apologia Poetica represents the peak to peak voltage of three phase electricity. Bessler can hardly have known about 3 phase electricity but he can have know about the mechanical analog.


"Peak voltage, Vp, as always is Vp = root(2) * Vrms
Minimum is Vp sin (60) or Vp*root(3/2)
So peak to peak is about 14% of maximum voltage."


which roughly corresponds to the white area.
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by agor95 »

With three mechanical waves rotating in a wheel.

The thing that comes to mind that mediates three forces from one vector to another is a gyroscope.

Also a precession could be used to rotate a wheel.

A gyro has the same weight spinning or not; However it appears to have less CF during precession.

I have only done a quick scan on this subject.

Regards
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by Grimer »

agor95 wrote:With three mechanical waves rotating in a wheel.

The thing that comes to mind that mediates three forces from one vector to another is a gyroscope.

Also a precession could be used to rotate a wheel.

A gyro has the same weight spinning or not; However it appears to have less CF during precession.

I have only done a quick scan on this subject.

Regards
Yep. That's one of the reasons that the Dominant Flywheel works. The rotating out of balance chunk is as the end of a long axle thus providing a precession oscillation to the flywheel. I will attempt to simulate this with my eitech wheel.

It seems to me that Prof. Laithwaite was very close to the answer when he lifted that heavy flywheel above his head with one hand at the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures.

If you haven't watched them, you should.
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by agor95 »

I have read material that compression and release in several systems are not symmetrical.

I believe a person got a Nobel Prize on this; relating to magnetic force.

So another path is magnetic field compression. That exists were any two surfaces come into contact.

Also I think hard clean surfaces reduces energy loss due to structural deformation.

We also see other asymmetry in wheel inertia. where two wheels of different MOI and size are used.
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by agor95 »

Eric Laithwaite interview had some interesting views.

1. The formulas for magnetism were the formulas for gyroscopes.
That was why gyros were in his magnetic engineering faculty
2. A boat that had no oars but wheels could cross Regent Park lake.
This was stated as a cryptic puzzle

So can three phase be implemented as a gyro ?
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re: Not "Into the Vanishing Point"

Post by agor95 »

I have been running my mark I simulator and imagine a sphere with a dot on it.

With the sphere rotating by the same amount in all three dimensions.

Then looking at the dot in each dimension over time.

Then seeing what happens when you alter the rotation rate in one dimension.

Looking for excess energy from the coriolis effect.

Well I am off for a drink.
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