Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

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john.smith
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Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

This is something I'll start working on after the 1st of the month. It will be the easiest way to test conservation of angular momentum. This would be when a line starts wrapping around the grind stone. This is because as the path the swinging weight is taken has a radius that keeps becoming smaller.
The link is to a web page that allows for some basic calculations to be performed. And once the bob reaches 6 o'clock (BC or Bottom Center) the grind stone will slowly retract the bob. This should allow the bob to swing higher because conservation of angular momentum dictates that the velocity of the bob will increase.
The weight will be between 2 solid beams with tracks the weight can ride on.
This way once the weight reaches a height greater than what it started out at in then can be released so it can move outward. And if successful then this might help to explain why Bessler referenced grind stones in his wheels.
What would need to be looked for in this is the angle the bob started swinging down from is eclipsed on the ascending side. And with this, 2 weights might be needed. With 2 weights then conservation of momentum and angular momentum might be realized. I think this might be the most basic way that can be tested.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pend.html

edited to add; this will allow me 2 try different ways of conserving momentum.
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pequaide
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by pequaide »

You have a very good experiment; in fact, it is a most brilliant experiment. But are you ready to have the experiment prove that angular momentum is not conserved?

You are right: if angular momentum is to be conserved the velocity of the bob must increase. And if it increases the bob will swing higher. But will it?

Here is another experiment: https://youtu.be/YaUmzekdxTQ and angular momentum is not conserved.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

This is a little bit different. with this it will be a little like someone on a pommel horse rocking back and forth. With this the ascending weight can be considered to be conserving the momentum of the descending weight.
With this the weight retraction will be the same distance as the distance between the 2 fulcrums. The movements will need to be controlled but then even a pendulum is a machine.
The ascending weight should be able to rise above the level of the fulcrums. If so then as that arm drops a toggle could kick the weight outward. And there is one minor trick with this, the ascending weight would be retracted towards fulcrum 2 which means that what it is moving in would need to be able to change it's orientation. This would be possible and might not be that difficult to do.
I have posted this in an Australian forum as well. Their wood working forum also has metal smiths and metal working among other things. And with something like this pendulum it probably would take both some wood working as well as some metal work.
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Post by Fcdriver »

The pendulum does not have to be equal swing in both directions, nor loading and push at equal points. Taking two rotations to load from center, while promoting rotation further from center creates mechanical advantage. Timing becomes a issue. The lifting and dropping a lever, can be compared to this.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

@All,
If an upward swing of 95 cm's is calculated it will lift higher than a weight swinging downward 1 meter. The .95 meters is an average of .90 meters and 1 meter and should be an accurate estimate on how high weight B will swing.
This considers that fulcrum 2's center of pivot is 10 cm's from fulcrum 1's center of rotation. And if weight B swings to a 90° from the axle then weight A would not start at 90° from the axle but would be slightly below that level.
And with the calculator for calculating force and lift that should be able to be somewhat accurately calculated first. You know, take the guess work out of it.
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john.smith
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

@All,
This is the mechanics I'll use for the build. I will need to see about an ileostomy first though. With this I'll take a cue from Gus and use some brass tubes. Besides adding a nice touch to the design they'll allow for a simple catch and release mechanism that can move with the pendulum.
With the pulley on the arm to the left, when the arm rotates downward the pulley will keep the catch and release mechanism positioned in a straight line with the weight. This will allow the line above/to the right of the pulley to be aligned always with fulcrum B. Without the pulley then as the arm n the left swings upward fulcrum B would be pulling back on it's retraction line and this would be pulling the weight in the opposite direction the arm is rotating instead of moving with it.
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john.smith
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

If the "grindstone" has a 4 in. radius then it has a 2 inch retraction. If the retraction line hangs straight down then that is the top of the weight wheel's alignment. And when it rotates 90° in a clockwise direction going from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock then the top of the weight wheel should be to the left of the bottom of the "grindstone'.
And as the arm swinging upwards gets near 9 o'clock then the retraction line can slip loose because of the "V" chamfer. If guides are placed on the lever between the weight wheel and the grindstone then the lines will fall back into place when the arm swings down to the 6 o'clock position.
And this if it works would demonstrate the basic principle that Bessler realized. As for me, it will be about 3 weeks before I can start on it but will not complain if someone else finds this interesting as it would directly support Bessler's claims.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

@All,
Mt 51 seems to work well with this. As you can see in the pictures the swinging pendulum rotates the wheel around it. As for the grindstone, it can be counter weighted as well as geared so it will try to lift itself. And since a weight can't lift itself the grindstone would stay in place.
And just for fun Mt 85. Could a set of tongs pump enough water to power a water wheel ?
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

With the math, if a 90° arc segment is 8.6 inches if it's radius is 5.5 inches then a retraction of 3.1 inches is possible. This is because of 90° of rotation.
This also means that if a line hangs down from the top of the brown section it will hang 3.1 inches below the radius block.
I'll be posting the build design so if the math proves out then everyone will know how to make one if they want. And since this is in pursuit of getting what might actually have been a Bessler wheel anyone can build this.
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basic math.jpg
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

@All,
Most likely a line will need to be tied off/anchored above the 90° arc (from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock). This will allow it to slip off off of the arc segment more easily. I'll be using a 5.5 inch radius and a 20 inch length with 12 ounce weights. This translates to about 14 cm's, 50 cm's and 340 grams (350 will be close enough).
The distance/length is center of mass to center of axis. The weight will hang from the board on top of it when it is at the 9 o'clock position. Having 2 different lines wrapping around it will allow for this. The retraction lines will be 2 different lines. The supporting lines will sag. This can give a slight downhill slope for the weight to roll away from the axis of rotation or away from the axle.
A v-block will help the lines move outward (to the sides of the retraction arc segment) so they can slip loose. This can be attached to the arc segment or the stand itself. And this is about the simplest possible concept.
With the weight wheels, what might be easiest is to drill a hole through wood that is 6.25 cm's (2.5 in.) thick. Then if a hole 2.5 cm's (1 in.) in diameter is drilled through it it will hold 350 grams of lead. With this it might be easier to have the wood round before pouring molten lead in it. This is easy enough to do if a wood block that has 2 halves has a hole through it so it can be clamped around the round wood to have lead poured in it.
It will be strange to have the leg/weight on the right just to be dead weight but this is because as the leg on the left swings upwards it's resistance will decrease because it's weight will be reeled in.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

@All,
Am going for a simpler and better looking design. A shorter more precise motion like Milkovic has with his I think will work better.

edited to add a little bit better image. It has a 60° degree spread between the 2 legs of the pendulum. There's not much to it because it's a fairly simple concept. And if this works then it would allow the 2 levers to lift the top weight when used in a wheel. This would only be showing that momentum can be conserved when a weight is swing upwards just as it would be moving in a rotating wheel.
Most likely where the line hangs from would need to be above the arc segment so it can slip off of it and back on easier. That's something that can be played around with once the double pendulum is built. I have posted this in a wood working forum and since it is in pursuit of Bessler's wheel anyone can build it. I'll need to wait until next month to start on it.

p.s., I like the way it looks like the symbol for the Freemasons that Bessler has in many of his drawings. Also 2 lines might need to be wrapped around the weight so it is suspended from the part in front of it with the left leg. With the right leg it can be held in one position the same way. If the line goes under the weight then over the top and under it again it will roll between the 2 places the line is secured to.
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new lever 1.2.jpg
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

T = 1.52s Large Amplitude
T = 1.44s

This is from the link on the first post. If the average distance from the fulcrum going up is 45 cm's while the downward swing is 50 cm's then it will require a difference of 0.08s. This means that the pendulum can swing a little higher. Going through a series of numbers 80° came up. I find that a little difficult to believe but is the answer the calculator for a pendulum's swing came up with.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... dl.html#c1
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by scott »

If you are relying on frictionless pivots and massless rods then it is a nonstarter.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

Scott,
Am relying on decreasing resistance to allow for loss of torque due to friction. With a 14 cm ( will be using a 5.5 inch, same thing ) radius a retraction of 8 cm's is possible. This means as the weight swings upwards it's center of mass from the fulcrum will go from 50 cm's to 42 cm's. it's average distance will be 46 cm's.
The "trick" would be having the weight retract at a 90° angle relative to the fulcrum. With the "grindstone", it will be to the left of the fulcrum. With Bessler he might have said 90° to the axle. Otherwise as the arm rotates the path of the line would be behind the arm creating drag.
I have some work to do on the animation such as having the "grindstone" remain in one place. Also with this demonstration, as far as a build goes both sides could have the weight retracting. That would require a grindstone mirroring the one on the left side. and if this is found to work then a larger "grindstone" can be tried, etc. This is only a test to see if it is possible.
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re: Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum

Post by john.smith »

This is an example of how the weight is fully retracted. With the wheel weight, it's basically a dowel with a hole drilled through it and then lead is poured into it. The weight wheel will actually be the most difficult thing to do. This is because it would help to have a drill press.
The lead center is 1.25 in. in dia. and is 1.5 in. long. That's close to 12 ounces. Normally the weight on a pendulum doesn't matter but this is moving something else.
At the end of the 1/4 circle can be a guide to push the retraction lines off of the sides. The brown line shows it is released.
May be offline a while. Until I can start on this there isn't much for me to say.
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