The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

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rlortie
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by rlortie »

ME quote:
Because this peak is in front of the Earth's motion the Earth will slow down because of friction and the Moon will speed up towards it; hence an exchange in Momentum.
There's a lot to say for momentum... I think I tried here. But the deformation increase of water is caused by gravity.
Earth slowing down and the moon speeds up! This brings to mind another thought: The moon in a sense is symmetrical with earth, that is it makes one revolution equal to one rotation around earth. On earth we are always looking at the same side.

Is this a coincidence or does gravitational force or some other force play a role in this? Is it perchance caused by the barycenter aka COM of the two bodies?

I do not see this as a argument, but rather a debate in an attempt to break the theory that gravity is totally conservative.

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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ovyyus »

If you pour some water into a sealed Besslerwheel and give it a spin, the dissipation losses of the water sloshing around the bottom of the wheel (tide) will cause wheel momentum decrease exactly proportional to those losses. The tidal losses are wholly paid for by decreasing momentum. Gravity powers nothing.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by preoccupied »

If you consider what I'm saying. Gravity is not conservative if it's powered by heat trapped in a vacuum a kind of maybe buoyancy, it's geometrically elusive to use for energy because of trying to cross mechanics over the x axis with continuous even force downwards. I believe I know I'm right guys with like no means to share why. If the sun went out the gravity of the planets would start to wane because they would get colder. It has something to do with vacuum space.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by agor95 »

I understand your gut feeling on the true nature of gravity.

I came across a mathematical proof that gravity between atoms
is equivalent to their electrostatic attraction.

The maths was beyond me at the time.

Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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Post by ME »

daanopperman wrote:If the high tide on the wrong side of the moon ( the bulge ) is due to the barycenter , then when we have a solar eclipse , there should be no high tide there .
Good question... Looked it up and compared with the next lunar cycle, apparently tides just wobble along as they're just there.
I have a bit of a hard time in (re)constructing the formulas to see if that "centrifugal"-theory of mine actually "holds water". Not sure yet if it's a false statement, but at least a work in progress in uncharted territory.

I looked at the differential-gravity-method and that's at least mathematically a lot easier: the force at each point subtracted by the average to get the force of deformation - the average force has no deformation effect. At long distances (and point-like masses) it approaches the situation where the differential force forms an 2:1 ellipse (ellipsoid, it's 3D) where the force outwards is twice the force inwards (the shape of tidal-bulges).
At a longer (solar) distances the differential force approaches this 2:1 force-ellipse even better. The following question rises: does size matter? I'm not sure but when an eclipsed sun is almost of equal size then perhaps it's resulting and effecting force-ellipse is not better.

But that's theory for an all waterworld, reality has this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphidromic_point
That complicates the sh*t out of those tides...
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by rlortie »

Compare the relation of Neap tides and Spring tides and see if you agree that tides are caused by gravitational forces of sun and moon.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/neap+tide
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spring+tide

EDIT: From Wikipidia:

Tidal force; A force arising in a system of one or more bodies as a result of differential gravitation: different parts of the system experience different accelerations. This can result in the production of tides and in general terms elongates a body in the direction of a nearby massive body, producing a tidal bulge. The force can alter a body's rotation rate until it is equal to the revolution period: this is true of most natural satellites of the planets, including the Moon, and is the case in some close binary stars, e.g. RS Canum Venaticorum stars. Tidal forces can lead to tidal heating of the interior of a body, and in extreme cases can lead to the disruption of a body.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ovyyus »

What powers tides and what causes tides are different conversations.
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Post by ME »

When I look at the tides on earth:
At New Zealand the tides basically just circles around that country in a counter clockwise way: one high, one low going around twice a day.
Interestingly it can be seen that water is pumped into the Hudson bay going counter clockwise, with several node per day.
At Australia the tidal nodes probably go clockwise.

From this it makes sense to me that water gets a regular pulse/push while it oscillates around and against coastal areas, tides will resonate according to the conditions of the local area, including distortions in mass distribution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJorZMT6W3M

It seems to me:
This force to deform water is likely caused by gravity. The occurrence of twice a day is likely caused my the Earth's rotation (momentum).
ovyyus wrote:What powers tides and what causes tides are different conversations.
How?
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ovyyus »

Tidal bulge is caused by gravity, tidal motion is powered by momentum.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by rlortie »

The bulge is caused by gravity and will always be in line or pointed at the gravitational force creating it. Tidal motion is the earth's momentum revolving within or under the bulge. It effects land mass just as well.

Earth tide - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide
Earth tide (also known as solid Earth tide, crustal tide, body tide, bodily tide or land tide) is the displacement of the solid earth's surface caused by the gravity of the Moon and Sun. Its main component has meter-level amplitude at periods of about 12 hours and longer.
‎Tide raising force · ‎Body tide · ‎Other Earth tide contributors · ‎Tidal constituents

Here is the answer to my question regarding the 1:1 ratio of earth moon rotation: Body tides in planets and moons, as well as in binary stars and binary asteroids, play a key role in long-term dynamics of planetary systems. For example, it is due to body tides in the Moon that it is captured into the 1:1 spin-orbit resonance (and is always showing us one side).
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Re: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ME »

Hmm, we all somewhat agree on how tides should work.
Basically: the moon lifts the water and drags it around in some 28 days, but it's the Earth slamming into it twice a day.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 438#153438
rlortie wrote:Bill wrote: "Tidal generators harness water motion powered by earth/moon momentum."
[...]
My point being; It is gravity that effects tides, starting ocean currents moving mass.
Because that generator is tied to the Earth, it's the generator slamming into the tidal wave... twice a day.
So the generator is initially and actually powered by the rotation of the Earth, not the orbital rotation/momentum of the Moon... right?
Marchello E.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ovyyus »

Yes, powered by rotational momentum of the earth and orbital momentum of the moon. But not powered by gravity. Right?
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by rlortie »

The picture is coming together! Gravitational forces from the sun and moon play a role in making the bulge. The earth revolves while rotating around the sun, the moon rotates around earth making one revolution.
Because that generator is tied to the Earth, it's the generator slamming into the tidal wave... twice a day.
So the generator is initially and actually powered by the rotation of the Earth, not the orbital rotation/momentum of the Moon... right?


Right!
The Australian company Tidal Energy Pty Ltd undertook successful commercial trials of efficient shrouded tidal turbines on the Gold Coast, Queensland in 2002. Tidal Energy delivered their shrouded turbine in northern Australia where some of the fastest recorded flows (11 m/s, 21 knots) are found. Two small turbines will provide 3.5 MW. Another larger 5 meter diameter turbine, capable of 800 kW in 4 m/s of flow, was planned as a tidal powered desalination showcase near Brisbane Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_pow ... idal_power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_barrage

My meaningless attempt to believe and debate that gravity can and does do work!
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by rlortie »

Here is a link for Fletcher (if he is interested)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_pow ... idal_power

From the above link:
Tides are controlled mainly by the gravitational pull of the moon. About once a day the moon rotates about the earth, attracting as it travels the bulge of water called the high tide that also travels round the earth. There are actually two high tides, because the earth and moon, as a system, both rotate about a common centre of mass. This centre is two-thirds out from the centre of the earth, not at the centre of the earth. The effect of the earth spinning about this centre is that it behaves as a centrifuge, resulting in a second high tide bulge in the ocean most distant from the moon.[5]

A second influence on the tides occurs because of gravitation from the sun. Gravitation from the sun has less influence than the moon, because it is so much further from earth. However, the sun influences the tidal range. When the sun, earth and moon are aligned in a straight line (at new and full moon), their tidal effects combine, producing the particularly high and low tides called spring tides. When the sun is at right angles to the moon, the effects are partially cancelled, producing the small tides called neap tides.[5]

New Zealand has a relatively small tidal range, usually less than two meters. However, some of the larger harbors on the west coast of the North Island, in particular the Kaipara, experience significant currents as the tides rise and fall.

Altogether there are sixty-two recognized natural influences on the tides, though only some will be significant at a given location. The gravitation of the moon and sun are the most important.
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re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

Post by ovyyus »

Ralph wrote:Tides are controlled mainly by the gravitational pull of the moon...
Ralph, 'controlled by' is not 'powered by'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power
Because the Earth's tides are ultimately due to gravitational interaction with the Moon and Sun and the Earth's rotation, tidal power is practically inexhaustible and classified as a renewable energy resource. Movement of tides causes a loss of mechanical energy in the Earth–Moon system...
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