Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by John Collins »

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See my blog at http://www.gravitywheel.com
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovyyus »

Silvertiger wrote:Centrifugal pumps are still just pumps...
Pumps can be motors.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by daanopperman »

Silvertiger ,

Your post is well noted and appreciated ,
However , you need to rethink your damnation of Ovyyus idea .

Take a refuse bag and see with how many breathes of full lungs it takes to fill the bag .
Now take the same bag , make a small opening for air to enter , hold it a small distance from your face and direct your breath into the opening . Air from the atmosphere that you have not had in your lungs will be sucked into the bag so that you may fill the bag with ONE breath , for free .
With a small amount of pressurized air , you can create quite a camotion and cause a much higher pressure than that of atmospheric pressure .
In MT , there is a wheel loaded with bellows opened and pressurized by small weights , although the weights are always at the same radius , they only move radially forward or backwards in relation to the wheel rotation . This does not put the wheel as much at a keeling orientation as would a falling weight on one side would , as they only move a small distance . If the bellows emptied into a bigger set of air bags , the same as the refuse bag , and only increase the bag pressure to 14.5 BL/sq , you have a potential equal only to the surface area of the bag .Also , this works both ways , emptying and filling the bag , so you receive twice the rewards for one action .

Daan .
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Post by daanopperman »

Forgot to mention this effect is also found all around us in nature .
A small breeze will turn into quite a wind if you stand under a foliage filled tree , or you pass over the summit of a ridge , or between two ridges .
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Post by daanopperman »

It's called the Ventury effect .
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ME »

Ahum,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect
wiki wrote:The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section (or choke) of a pipe. The Venturi effect is named after Giovanni Battista Venturi (1746–1822), an Italian physicist.
Let's say Giovanni was 20 year old, that would make Bessler....

Any explanation other than a genuine (gravity, overbalanced, or something) wheel or otherwise a fake would make Bessler an extremely big idiot.

He either would have a silent gas-powered efficient application of the Venturi effect, or some wheel-sized-portable-steam-engine,... or whatever (we forgot static electricity). All those 'could-be-alternatives' &variants would have made him famous even without putting it inside the wheel. The same things but then not-so-portable, and thus external, would reduce the wheel as fake.
It needs more persuasion.
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Re: re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by Silvertiger »

daanopperman wrote:Your post is well noted and appreciated ,
However , you need to rethink your damnation of Ovyyus idea.
I'm not certain that you got my drift. Karl saw whatever it was that he saw, and verified that it was as Bessler had said. And it had nothing to do with pumps. There is nothing in the available literature to make one think otherwise. That's pretty much all I was saying in a nutshell.

Even Bessler said it was not driven by wind.
Bessler wrote:It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind, or springs. Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a peacock's tail. It turns to the right and to the left; it spins aroundin any possible direction, whether laden or empty.
Of course, Bessler makes it confusing when he says this since he now says it is not driven by weights either.


ovyyus wrote:Pumps can be motors.
Hey, if you have an idea that you think will work, regardless whether it was Bessler's design or not, then you should pursue it to whatever end it may lead you.
Philosophy is the beginning of science; not the conclusion.
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Post by eccentrically1 »

@me:Why couldn't his wheels use the Venturi effect before it was "discovered" by Venturi?

@tiger:"Wind" in that case probably refers to wind wheel's operation.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ME »

I read his story as being some kind of underdog, working his way up in society... etc.
He would have been one of the great for investigating thermodynamics, next to Newton.
Bernouilli published his book "Hydrodynamica" in 1738, even before Venturi found that effect.

So Bessler did some investigation on pressure and fluids, made some yet unpublished discoveries. But then went the extra mile by applying this new found knowledge and shape it into some mechanical application. And it worked flawlessly (no leakage of whatever kind).
It also had to fit inside a wooden wheel, a reportedly lightweight wheel.
It was allowed to be moved by people from one stand to the other (so it wasn't very fragile).
Also this construction was "smashable" (glass components?), completely sealed and perpetual...

Yes it's possible, just highly unlikely.
And even then, I think it's just plain stupid to hide such, or similar invention, as a mechanical perpetual motion machine. Fame and glory would be easier without it, or saved his face by making it an oh-well-I-tried situation and publish it anyway to get recognized as a great scientific mind.


Next: so what do you think:
I think it's more likely, without the "fraud"-option, he found some unique mechanical configuration or trick and perfected it...
He could make some alterations by trial, error and some calculus.
Still amazing, but that's it.
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Post by Silvertiger »

eccentrically1 wrote:"Wind" in that case probably refers to wind wheel's operation.
It is being defined by Bessler as a conservative motive force, as it appears next to weights [gravity], and springs [compression], all which are conservative and hence must be used as pre-stored energy - the very type of energy Bessler states does not operate his wheel.
Philosophy is the beginning of science; not the conclusion.
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Post by eccentrically1 »

@me
The same things could be said about a gravity wheel. Investigation, discoveries, application, flawless, it had to fit in a wheel,etc.
It would be stupid to hide a gravity wheel. Fame and glory would be easier, publish it and get recognized.
But not completely sealed if it was harnessing an environmental gradient.
What do I think?
It's impossible that he discovered perpetual motion, not amazing.

Tiger: what example of using wind as pre-stored energy would he be defining?
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Post by Silvertiger »

A definition is an explanation of a particular term. An example is used to explain a definition. Clearly Bessler gave no examples in his definition. He defined "wind" within the context of gravity power and spring power, both of which are conservative forces.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovyyus »

eccentrically1 wrote:what example of using wind as pre-stored energy would he be defining?
Bessler was variously accused of powering his wheel with lifted weights, wound springs, and compressed air. Therefore wind = compressed air.
ME wrote:All those 'could-be-alternatives' &variants would have made him famous even without putting it inside the wheel.
More famous than discovering 'true pm'?
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Post by eccentrically1 »

Ah, thanks, I didn't know he was accused of using compressed air.
That makes sense if he used bellows that only moved air through the wheels.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovyyus »

Silvertiger wrote:That pressure/thermal gradient is radially uniform.
It wouldn't be uniform with timed flap valves at the rim. 4kg of air has the same inertia as 4kg of lead.
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