Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

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ovaron
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovaron »

John,
if Karl knew how the wheel worked and he really had so much understanding about mechanics (which I do not doubt), he must also have understood that a hitherto unknown principle is behind it. I mean not only an unknown arrangement of levers, weights, strings, pulleys, chains, gears or other things, as they can be found in mechanical devices, but an absolutely new principle. At least he should have had understand that. The 100,000 taler may worth today about US $ 10-20 million. Considering what sums are now being spend by truly wealthy people, and Karl, of course, was one of these rich ones, it may be the value of a new television for one of us. One is already thinking about this, but it is not a hous, which one has to finance on credit. If you then consider that Karl has given a house to Bessler, has paied him the salary as a commercial council for many years, it becomes absolutely incomprehensible for me why he did not buy the wheel from Bessler. He could have made a condition with Bessler not to pass on the secret, and so he could resell the wheel himself. So he could have helped Bessler better, it would have cost him less, or it would have made him world-famous.

To make it clear again. I'm also sure the wheel was genuine. Basically it does not matter if Karl understood the principle or not. You are absolutely right. But for us, without understanding what kind of principle is behind the wheel, it's almost a lottery to find the mechanics. I really hope you have the solution and will present it to us.
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Post by Silvertiger »

I agree with the possibility that ovaron is suggesting. Bessler had an agreement of full disclosure with Karl. Karl looked at it. He saw it, and he saw how it moved. But it is still possible that he did not truly understand the "why," even with having a high degree of mechanical aptitude and knowledge and understanding of known principles. I have shown drawings to professional engineers that had them scratching their heads, as what I was showing them was not exactly in their particular field of expertise, as they so stated...even though they have all taken the same required math and physics that I have taken, and beyond. So it IS a possibility to look at something and only partially understand it.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by John Collins »

I hope I have the solution too, ovaron. Working or not I will present it as soon as I know..

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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

John,

Keep up the good work, you deserve it if anyone does--------------
Without your work it would never happen.

Sam
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by John Collins »

Thanks Sam.

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Re: re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by WaltzCee »

ovaron wrote:The question is still open as to whether Karl really understood the mechanism . . .
or its potential. I don't think Bessler fully understood it.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by rlortie »

Silvertiger wrote:
I agree with the possibility that ovaron is suggesting. Bessler had an agreement of full disclosure with Karl. Karl looked at it. He saw it, and he saw how it moved. But it is still possible that he did not truly understand the "why," even with having a high degree of mechanical aptitude and knowledge and understanding of known principles.
Being born as an heir to his position of royalty does not imply that he possessed a mechanical aptitude. There is little history on Karls education and empirical skills I am aware of. What does count here is his full disclosure agreement.

He may have concluded that the wheel would never produce the required performance to pump water at a volume and height for his cascades water fall.

He kept quiet, keeping his word to Bessler and credibility.

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Post by MrVibrating »

The thing with the "not powerful enough" hypothesis, especially with regards to the issue Ovaron raises, is that if Karl really did grasp what he was witnessing, then he would've know it was OU..

Obviously he wouldn't've recongised that terminology. But just from basic logic, any system that produces more work than it requires is effectively infinitely efficient; it's potential output power limited only by how much you need or want... requiring no fuel, virtually no maintenance..

I mean, it's not just slightly more powerful that a Pappin engine.. but infinitely more powerful, in principle, than anything before or since..

Recognising what he was seeing meant recognising its potential, if only in practical terms, let alone cosmological..

It would be as if he understood all that.. but just didn't like the colour. "Ain't you got one that comes in red?

If he understood what he was seeing then he knew he was looking at, to all intents and purposes, infinite free work potential.

Hence i think Ovaron has a good point. Doubtless he knew it was genuine. But if he really understood the working principle in mathematical terms, rather than just 'a weight does this or that' he'd've appreciated its scientific value, especially then, at the height of the enlightenment, and you'd think, considered it a solemn responsibility to bring it to wider scientific attention... in much the same way that its utilitarian value to us here now is negligible compared to its scientific potential. If he really understood the principle, and thus its implications, then his sworn secrecy to Bessler could've been honoured without keeping it secret from the rest of the scientific world.. to an enlightened mind, what would be the graver sin?
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovyyus »

Another option: Karl really did grasp what he saw but the energy source powering the wheel was too limited for his intended purpose, yet it still fell within the definition of a 'true pm' by the standards of the time. We know for a fact that application of the definition of pm has changed between then and now.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Forget it!!!!!!!!!! Sam Peppiatt
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by WaltzCee »

I am prone to believe the most incredible things.
For instance I believe my client's boy raised from
the dead. I know, right? But as thoroughly as
we've examined every aspect of nature, from
measuring gravity waves to smashing subatomic
particles and taking pictures of it, it's hard to
believe there is some mysterious energy source
out there that has escaped our notice.

Maybe he used this for weights/prime mover . . .


You alright, Sam?
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the future is here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by John Collins »

It isnt so much the possible lack of power of the pumping that dissuaded Karl from buying the wheel to drive the water back up his cascade. Newcomen and Savery both experienced the same problem in draining mines, there is a limit beyond which you cannot simply suck water upwards nor pump it upwards with one machine. Newcomen’s worked in deeper mines because it worked on a different principle to Savery’s so-called ‘miners friend’. But it’s power was still limited where the height required to pump water was so large.

In the end Karl relied on the presence of large resevoirs of water at the top of the cascade which collected rain water and could only operate when there was sufficient water stored. I believe that the same system functions today.

JC
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by Fletcher »

You know, to be a bit trite.

If we have been unable to find the answer to Bessler's PMM 'intrinsic' muscle.

And we know that the definition of 'true PM' has changed since then and now, which adds another layer of complication.

And we know that Karl didn't see fit to purchase the secret outright for his own use, development, or resale etc, for whatever reason ..

Then we probably aren't asking the right questions about what the intrinsic power source was.

Intrinsic force wise the probable contenders are gravity and Cf's.

Then we have some sort of inertia / momentum asymmetry possibility.

Ambient forces include pressure and temperature differentials.

Then we have stored internal fuels needing periodic replenishment. The early heat engine analogy.

And we also have chemical reactions (exothermic and endothermic), e.g. Carbon Dioxide producing reactions, other gas producing reactions etc etc. He was an alchemist after all.

Fraud.

Clockwork.

Cat inside.

The matrix isn't that large.
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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by rlortie »

If I read my history right the Bergpark came into being as a Baroque park under Landgrave Charles I of Hesse-Kassel in 1701. The Italian architect Giovanni Francesco Guerniero (de) started the construction of the Hercules monument and the giant cascades.

In 1785, Wilhelm (William) IX, Landgrave of Hesse started a large extension of the park, and the following year his architect, Simon Louis du Ry, designed the Neoclassical palace Schloss Wilhelmshöhe.

My point being: Thought of supplying water to the cascades would have come under consideration a few years before Karl and Bessler came into the picture!

There is later mention of the Lions castle and a Roman aqueduct. The castle is said to be artificial but the question remains regarding the aqueduct.

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re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

Post by ovyyus »

Fletcher wrote:Intrinsic force wise the probable contenders are...
From most probable to least probable, I think the list is:

Environment heat/pressure
Chemical reaction
Stored fuel/pe
Inertia/momentum asymmetry
Gravity and/or cf
Cat
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