This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

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raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

From the beginning of my Auto Wheel concept, one thing I was certain about and two things I was not sure about.
I was certain that the weights would move in an asymmetric orbital path.
But I was not sure whether it would rotate clockwise or counter clockwise, because I was not sure which direction would be the net unidirectional torque.
Because of that I have shown descriptions and drawings alternately wheel rotations on both directions.

Fletcher's two sims yesterday have convinced me that my Auto Wheel concept would work clockwise rotation.

I just looked at a drawing I did on the 5th December.
It clearly shows (see arrows in red) that when the springs are on the left half and the levers on right half on the wheel, the springs are all pulling ( because they have elastic potential energy) the weights and the levers clockwise, whereas when the springs are on the right half and the levers on the left half of the wheel, the weights are in dead center of the wheel providing zero torque.

I am confident that my concept would be clockwise.

Raj
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Putting my 12 weights onto Fletcher's second sim, shows clockwise net torque 301217.jpg
Putting my 12 weights onto Fletcher's first sim, shows clockwise net torque 301217.jpg
Auto Wheel - uk patent- second drawing 051217--gravity and springs pulls. 301217.jpg
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by Fletcher »

All I can tell you Raj from the simple sims is that they predict the wheel will turn in either direction. CW or CCW. It just depends where it is positioned before being allowed to lose weight GPE and gain Spring EPE.

In my sims I had the lever-weight almost vertical, pivoted from 6 o'cl (actually biased offset by 0.1 degrees to the right). That meant the flexi rope was connected at 9 o'cl thereabouts. The sim could only fold and move in the CCW direction in those circumstances.

If I had positioned the sim so the lever-weight was almost vertical, pivoted from 12 o'cl (actually biased to -0.1 degrees - slightly right of 12 o'cl), then it would fold and turn CW. That's because the flexi rope is now connected at 3 o'cl.

Basically the sim shows a Pendulum attached to a wheel rim. The Pendulum is connected to both a Spring and a Rope. The Pendulum interacts with the Spring and they modify each others behaviour. The Rope only allows Pendulum movement in certain quadrants, else its a rigid structure effectively.

The question is where is the extra kick of wheel momentum going to come from to achieve Pendulum reset, or restitution of the Pendulum original GPE, and allow the Spring to go back to its starting length ?

You may have mentioned this somewhere but your AutoWheel concept reminds me very much of MT's 26 and 27 FWIW.

Anyways, let's see if David M's sims show similar or different behaviour than my sims predict. Comparisons are good to find errant behaviour and why.

FWIW .. as said earlier Bessler seemed adamant that his Connectedness Principle must be enacted (with the correct handle-construction) before anything could be achieved. I take that to be not multiple mechs in a wheel but one mech coupled to at least one other so that they modify each others behaviour and mass positioning in such a clever way that excess asymmetric torque is created which manifests as excess wheel momentum. IOWs achieving OU conditions. I try to keep that in mind at all times and you should probably consider it if you hit a brick wall which is yet to be established.
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by ovyyus »

Fletcher wrote:...the wheel will turn in either direction. CW or CCW. It just depends where it is positioned before being allowed to lose weight GPE and gain Spring EPE.
Sounds like a fancy flywheel?
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by Fletcher »

Well yes, of a sort. The single mech weight is restricted from moving (under gravity) except in certain positions of the wheel background relative to a clock. Then it can move either way just as a pendulum can. Just like a pendulum, unless there is an extra boost of momentum to the wheel in either direction, it will not reach required height to continue rotation in one direction.

Very good flywheels are close to being perfectly balanced. In which case once rotating they continue in a direction until frictions bring them to a stop.

In this case the crux is that for the lever-weight to move internally it must lose some GPE, which in turn must be restored at the very least, for continual rotation possibility. The sims show an orbital like path beneath the axle but that path never closes i.e. the loop is not closed, it is open. In essence the lever-weight never quite regains its GPE at the beginning of the orbit. Hence why is it more like a pendulum than a flywheel IMO.
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

Trial build at home to replicate Fletcher's sims.

This 4ft diameter wheel showed better lifting result than that of the sims.

I have run test with only one mech, replacing LEVER by STRING, to reduce friction by the lever.

So now, we have a WEIGHT, hanging, swinging on a SPRING and two STRINGS.

Starting from REST, ( without any push/pull) every time, the lifting and resetting of weight is complete or almost complete, with wheel running clockwise.

Raj
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Replicating Fletcher's sims -  home built wheel- 010118.jpg
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

@ Fletcher.

A special thank to you, dear friend.

Your sims have opened up the Pandora box for me.

Based on the asymmetric path inscribed by the motion on one weight in your sims, I, now, have FULL understanding of my Auto Wheel concept. I can, now, appreciate the beauty of my Auto Wheel concept.

It's five months since I started with my new concept, and I got help from several persons, Silvertiger, David M, Marchello, Physics tutors, and you, Fletcher.

Your sims have answered the most important question that mattered to me since last July.
My Auto Wheel concept is a TORQUE driven wheel. I desperately wanted to find the Torques by the respective weights through 360 degrees rotation of wheel.

Your sims show the orbital path of a weight through (180+168) 348 degrees rotation.
Your scientific orbital path of one weight, is all I need to work out NET TORQUE of any number of weights I choose to have in my Auto Wheel concept.

I am working tirelessly these new year days, to finalise my analysis of my Auto Wheel concept.

So far, things are looking promising.

A very big thank. again my dear FLETCHER.

Raj.
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

I am working almost daily on my Auto Wheel concept.

Fletcher's sim has proven beyond doubt that this wheel concept would NOT work as has been presented so far. The weight CANNOT be raised back to the center of the wheel at 12 0'clck position.

I have been wracking my brain since before new year, looking of some way that the weight could be made to be lifted back to the top, resetting point, for the wheel to have a chance to work.

This current concept rely on the force of gravity and the force of springs working in tandem to work.

I believe that there must be a third force that is needed to push the weights over the TOP, to enable easy resetting.

I think this third force could be MAGNETS.

Remains to be seen.

I have already made drawings of this additional force in my ongoing wheel concept, It's looks just right, what I needed.

Now, my auto wheel concept will be relying on THREE conservative forces to work: Gravity, Springs and Magnets.

Raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

Here is my Auto Wheel drawing showing how the added magnets would be used, and magnetic repelling force would be used to push the top ascending weight to and past the center at 12 o'clock position.

The levers length have been doubled, the extended lengths are outside the wheel, each has a SMALL cylindrical magnet at its end.

A LARGE cylindrical magnet is fix at the top right side, next to the wheel.

Magnets are used in such a way that , when the wheel turn counter-clockwise, the smaller magnets moving up on the ascending and the larger fix magnet have their same poles facing one another and the repelling force of the larger magnet pushes the approaching smaller magnet downwards, making the extended lever act as a seesaw, and pushes the corresponding weight at the other end, lifting over the top towards the center and 12 o'clock position.

Raj
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Auto Wheel - 3rd UK patent application drawing 090118.jpg
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by Fletcher »

Hi Raj .. I guess the thing is can the combination of using 3 conservative forces give you the asymmetric torque you desire. Then technically would it be a gravity wheel or a magnet permanent wheel ? I guess you could call it whatever you wanted since it has both elements.

People who build permanent magnet 'motors' seem to run into problems of a "sticking point". If interested search for the 'V gate' and other related designs. The adage seems to be that if a magnet can pull something to it (such as another magnet or some ferrous iron etc) then that magnetic force is also too strong for it to let go when you need it to. IOW's gravity imbalance isn't great enough to overcome magnetic attraction. The "Museum of Unworkable Devices" has a good explanation of this based on some old designs that the inventors thought would work.

http://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Here is a picture of a design I thought was quite simple and straightforward, originally posted here by JC many years ago. But it uses an electromagnet which pulses IINM. It also demonstrates a simple 'connectedness principle' FWIW.
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t_electromagnetic.gif
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

@ Fletcher.

I am attempting to NEGATE pull force of magnet and use ONLY REPEL force of magnet, by special arrangement of opposing magnets.

In this video, I am using two identical magnets taken from an old starter motor from scraps.
One magnet is swinging on a lever on outer rim of a free rotating wheel.
One magnet is fix vertically below the wheel.
As the wheel is rotated, the repelling forces of the magnets come into play on both sides of the vertical position of the magnets. The magnets are not pulled together, because of the special arrangement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZTLFLz1uuQ

Raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

A gravity and magnets powered wheel concept drawing I posted way back on 070110, some eight years ago.

Raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

My trek in complete darkness searching for possible solution for a working wheel continues, with unexpected flashes of light.

I just found an explosive connection between my Auto Wheel concept drawing and Bessler's MT137 drawing.

I'll explain more, as I explore this connection.

Raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by raj »

The Auto Wheel concept that started with a whimper in 2017, looks poised to end up with a bang in 2018.

Caution is required for further explanation for now.

As always. all will be shown on here, when ready.

Walking in the paths of unknowns, is the only way to find unknowns.

The Auto Wheel concept is getting simpler and simpler to prove, all because of my analysis and build attempts.
In fact my Auto Wheel concept has ultimately turned into the SIMPLEST design to build and test.

While working my last concept testing build last night, it did not work as I expected. Looking closely as to why, I FOUND why the wheel was behaving the way it was. In fact it was SHOWING me the RIGHT PATH to follow. There was something MINOR, but crucial error in my concept measurements.

Understanding that error so accidently found, I did some analysis, drawings and physical testing, I think that now I am fully confident of having an Auto Wheel working concept.

Raj
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by rlortie »

Speaking of magnets! What become of this guy and his magnet motor!

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2013/11/ger ... rmane.html
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re: This is my wheel concept 2017, not Bessler's 1717...

Post by ovyyus »

Ralph, pre-mature chicken counting is the new normal.
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