Generating more meaningful debate

[agor95]

@john.smith

Of cause your efforts do count. Just let it count on it's own merits.

Good work stand regardless of others opinions.

So keep focused on your contributions and move on and let
other members appreciate the ideas that you post.

There are lots of viewers read your post see your work and start laughing
at the 'hand-bag waving'. I don't as I feel so much of your time and ours are lost - what a shame.

You are better than this, you know that, come on prove me right.

[AB Hammer]

AB Hammer's favorite quote is that "only building will tell"

You know I see nothing wrong with the quoted statement.
regardless to who stated it first.

@AB @rlortie

Each member stands on their contributions - lets focus on that in this thread.

That also goes for all builders physical and virtual.

Regards

Most here would agree and merits are important. Just as someone who has been banned from most forums including one he built by breaking the rules. He keeps coming back under new names over and over and over ... latest name john.smith. New readers would not see his true merits of shame. He has been trouble here for over 9 years
Just as he show a single video of my chaos wheel and calls me a fraud to cause trouble. People should see this video of mine of some of my work. But to be truthful I stopped posting what I am working on at that time due to people like James Lindgaard posting as john.smith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny7O7bAn2uU

Where is all his finished wheels? He does show a lot of photos of parts.

[john.smith]

agor,
After I can have surgery I probably won't touch Bessler's wheel again. It's been a really bad experience. Math has been shot down as not worth anything. This is because most in here haven't considered how momentum is generated. It's the falling weight and not the one being lifted. Getting a weight to be in it's outer position is the easy part. But how is the momentum (spin of the wheel) conserved ? I've been trying to explain this and have been politely told to go fock myself.

[AB Hammer]

agor,
After I can have surgery I probably won't touch Bessler's wheel again. It's been a really bad experience. Math has been shot down as not worth anything. This is because most in here haven't considered how momentum is generated. It's the falling weight and not the one being lifted. Getting a weight to be in it's outer position is the easy part. But how is the momentum (spin of the wheel) conserved ? I've been trying to explain this and have been politely told to go fock myself.

No one here is telling you to go fock yourself for you medical problems. A lot of us also have medical problems as you have attacked me for my disabilities. You attack and then cry "they are attacking me for my problem". The only problem we have here is you for passing so many lies and BS that has nothing to do with this quest.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Cloud Camper!!

You are right about the back EMF idea and the need for an energy source.
As you may remember I've been working with sliders and more importantly how to reset them. The energy source has to be a spring. When the slider is more or less vertical it's own weight stretches out the spring, then when the slider is at or near horizontal, the spring will reset it, I.E. lift it back up, with no back EMF, to oppose rotation of the wheel.

Every thing is okay up to this point but, the springs pull the slider back and forth. For it to work one spring has to be coupled up to the slider while the other one has to be decoupled, then they have to swap every half revolution. Do you get what I mean?

Anyway that's the last trick to be solved. If a way could be found to hook and unhook the springs, the wheel will take off from a standing start.

Sam

[cloud camper]

OK Sam - I wish you luck.

BUT - I come with a physics background and I believe you need to show how
you are breaking mathematical symmetry with your idea.

Basically the laws of symmetry say that if your wheel looks identically the same after a 360 degree rotation, then symmetry has not been violated and no energy gain is possible.

Essentially this means that every component of your device follows a closed loop path thru a 360 degree rotation of the wheel and returns to it's start position, there is no possible gain as every component has returned to its original PE (mass x gravity x height) in a static gravitational field.

A CHANGING gravitational field throughout the cycle would be non-symmetrical, as then your descending weights could be in a strong field and the ascending weights would be in a weaker field.

Of course this is what makes the Bessler wheel such a conundrum as no one has been able to come up with a mechanism that would extract energy from a static unchanging field.

And we know that sliders, springs and latches have been tried thousands of times with no positive results.

But it's fun to think that you have discovered the single slider configuration that will work so once more good luck!

[Sam Peppiatt]

Cloud Camper,

I'm probably not explaining it very well, and it's not working yet. So I could be wrong. I tried a sliding plate, with a cam, to flip the springs; which was a disaster to say the least.

Do you know anyone working with sliders? I couldn't find much history on our forum. For what ever it's worth, the springs do lift the weights / slider back up. Which has been the major problem.

Sam

[Fletcher]

OK Sam - I wish you luck.

BUT - I come with a physics background and I believe you need to show how you are breaking mathematical symmetry with your idea.

Basically the laws of symmetry say that if your wheel looks identically the same after a 360 degree rotation, then symmetry has not been violated and no energy gain is possible.

Essentially this means that every component of your device follows a closed loop path thru a 360 degree rotation of the wheel and returns to it's start position, there is no possible gain as every component has returned to its original PE (mass x gravity x height) in a static gravitational field.

A CHANGING gravitational field throughout the cycle would be non-symmetrical, as then your descending weights could be in a strong field and the ascending weights would be in a weaker field.

Of course this is what makes the Bessler wheel such a conundrum as no one has been able to come up with a mechanism that would extract energy from a static unchanging field.

And we know that sliders, springs and latches have been tried thousands of times with no positive results.

But it's fun to think that you have discovered the single slider configuration that will work so once more good luck!

And that is a very readable and intelligible summary CC - worth repeating and remembering.

[raj]

As a layman in physics, I humbly beg to differ.

We start with a weights-wise asymmetric overbalanced wheel which can make 360 degrees turn by pre-defined path and special arrangement of weights motion, providing continuous net positive torque, to complete resetting of weights starting positions.

The asymmetry is maintained and can be repeated.

I firmly believe that could be possible.
I believe my Auto Wheel concept can do that, barring proof to come hopefully.

@ Sam.

Forge forward. You are on the right tract.

Raj

[Fletcher]

We start with a weights-wise asymmetric overbalanced wheel which can make 360 degrees turn by pre-defined path and special arrangement of weights motion, providing continuous net positive torque, to complete resetting of weights starting positions.

The asymmetry is maintained and can be repeated.

I firmly believe that could be possible.

Raj, that being said ...

... Cloud Camper is stating the mathematical position/doctrine about a Perpetuum Mobile. Physics is written in the language of Math. So he says that ...

I believe you need to show how you are breaking mathematical symmetry with your idea.

i.e. show in the Math or by working model where the extra energy is coming from to cause continuous rotation once started, AND do Work.

The Math says its not possible to get extra energy from a conservative field of gravity and for the internal weights to reset themselves so that after any 360 degs of rotation the internal format looks the same as start conditions. That is the symmetry he is talking about and the Math is circular between linear and rotational equations and the Work Energy Equivalence Principle (WEEP) making it very difficult (if not impossible) to cull a prospect from the formulas that might give a symmetry break to exploit for the task. Emmy Noether summarized it. She did in part I think because it is human nature to find pattern in things (which she did admirably) and because we tend to like order and not chaos and so we put our 'ducks in a row' or 'stack our pennys'. No different for Math, with familiarity we want order and self-referncing if possible.

Cloud Camper wraps it up neatly by paraphrasing Stevin's Principle ...

Basically the laws of symmetry say that if your wheel looks identically the same after a 360 degree rotation, then symmetry has not been violated and no energy gain is possible.

Essentially this means that every component of your device follows a closed loop path thru a 360 degree rotation of the wheel and returns to it's start position, there is no possible gain as every component has returned to its original PE (mass x gravity x height) in a static gravitational field.

That being said ... then your Logical Statement (IF proven to be TRUE) comes to the fore. Also worth repeating.

We start with a weights-wise asymmetric overbalanced wheel which can make 360 degrees turn by pre-defined path and special arrangement of weights motion, providing continuous net positive torque, to complete resetting of weights starting positions.

The asymmetry is maintained and can be repeated.

Vis-a-vis ... IF a Perptuum Mobile that uses gravity force ONLY can be proved to exist then your logical Statement is proved TRUE. And therefore Stevin's Principle (and disproof of the impossibility of PM) is proved FALSE. And therefore the Laws of Symmetry have been violated even though "every component has been returned to its original PE" and "every component of your device follows a closed loop path thru a 360 degree rotation of the wheel and returns to it's start position."

IF a Perpetuum Mobile (wheel) can be demonstrated to be TRUE (it currently can't be proved by available Math) then since it is a rotating machine (using Besslers' examples) then Stevin's Principle is instantly dismissed as wrong.

As I said a day or two ago if the average radius of internal shifting masses is constant over time, neither increasing or decreasing (re: Stevin), then the Math available to analyse it is also wrong OR incomplete.

There is however another alternative. If Stevin's or CC's assumptions about positional change and original PE's and closed loop paths is demonstrated to be TRUE for a TRUE Perpetuum Mobile (as Bessler's seemed to be) then we are left with only ONE logical alternative that could thereby cause asymmetric torque in one direction for a wheel format.

I wonder if you can see what it is ?

[raj]

You are freefalling in the air, about to hit the ground to your death.

Luckily SPIDER-MAN is here to catch you to safety.

Unfortunately, Spider-Man cord makes a complete 360 degrees, loopy the loop, bring you back to where you were, resetting your position and Spider-Man gets dizzy and lets go of you.

Are you now, safe and you won't fall to your death? Or will you certainly fall to your death, because you are back to the point where you were already falling?

@ Sam,
If your weights/sliders are already falling and your springs are lifting and resetting them back to their falling position, I believe you are on to a runner.

Raj

[agor95]

@Sam Peppiatt

It is hard to get an idea across with text posts.

https://steampunks.ddns.net/bessler/wheel/

Can you go to wheel1h (horizontal)?

You will need to click on 'Please click'.

With two springs you see the bar passes the middle mark.

There is no reason why a ratchet can prevent the bar from returning.
The controller in the ratchet is always on the underside of the rod.

This illustration is to show spring and inertia active on each other.

Good to see we are rotating around a similar wheel :-)

[Sam Peppiatt]

Thank you everyone, CC, raj, F, &, agor95

Thanks for the kind words. agor95's picture is what I have and is right as far as I know, except I only have two sliders. And, I only use gravity no centrifugal forces. Try to imagine a long tension spring with one end fastened to the outer end of the slider(s), and the other end, fastened towards the center of the wheel and more or less parallel with it's slider.

Also the slider is some what heavier then the strength of the spring so as the slider rotates downward it stretches out the spring. Then about 45 degrees past bottom dead center, BDC, the spring starts to lift the slider back up. At or about horizontal the slider is fully reset to the right for CW rotation, and causes no back EMF, as CC suggested.

The giant problem is; there has to be a spring at both ends of the slider(s). sense they are double acting. For it to work, one spring has to release while the other one is lifting. That's where I'm at now. I.E., how to do that.

argo95, you are right, a picture is worth a jillion words!!

Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

aror95,

Follow up. I must be a big dummy, I don't see how you are doing the resetting, of the sliders.
However your sim. is fantastic!! The timing is perfect as far as I know.

I could never do that ------------------------Sam

[john.smith]

Norwegians are not being prejudice against by any major group in the USA. Norway was invaded by Germany in world war two but I think White Power groups that like Hitler don't care about that particular invasion very much and think instead that Norway is a pretty cool part of the white community if the individuals are racist enough. Norway had the National Insurance Act if that's still a thing. So it's more socialist than some other countries.

I found this website on Norway. I think Norway looks good.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/norway/

I don't know of racism towards Norway. Every time you say that people don't like you because you're Norwegian I don't understand what you mean.

Preoccupied,
It might be easier for some in here to hold it against my being 1/2 Norwegian than to admit that I am smart.
AB Hammer has over 20 builds and never used math. I've done fewer builds and have used math and as for Bessler, yes I do believe I have his wheel figured out.