Are we sure of 8 weights

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Furcurequs
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Post by Furcurequs »

Ovaron,

Yes, I pointed that out once myself.
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Robinhood46 »

Thats exactly what I was hoping somebody would say was the case and supply a link to records.
Can't win them all.
Effectively 7 and 9 are both about 8, It's a shame nobody counted the knocks for 10 or 20 turns to be able to determine the exact number per revolution.
Maybe we should focus more on trying to make a time machine, then we can go back and count ourselves. we can make the most of the occasion to tell bessler that we are actually even stupider than he thinks we are and ease up a bit on the cryptic clue lark.
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Furcurequs »

Hello Robin,

...and welcome to the forum, btw.

I tend to take Bessler "clues" with a grain of salt and am more concentrated on my understanding of accepted physics along with perhaps some of my own observations and insights, too, when coming up with experimental designs.

A design I was working on when I first joined the forum would have likely made a non-integer number of hitting sounds per revolution (had I finished building it). Because of this I pointed out somewhere in the forum, also, that the "about 8" could have meant that it was not actually an integer number of sounds per revolution with Bessler's wheel.

I've since come up with what I feel is a less complicated design to test the same basic principle I was originally exploring but which should have a whole number of hitting/tapping sounds per revolution instead. (Less complicated in that it may have the potential to run with a fewer set of mechanisms.)

Any sort of tapping in my designs would just be incidental to their operation, however. I'm not really relying on collisions (which would likely just be energy wasting) for their operation.

Dwayne
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

To @

Maybe you are looking at it the wrong way. Under load the wheel turned 20 rpm. That's 3 seconds per revolution. Eight thumps in 3 seconds, I don't see how you could get that wrong. What seams to me to get exactly right, or more difficult to get right, would be the time for each revolution.

Couldn't the rpm very slightly? In other words it was always 8 hits, but the time could be slightly less than 3 sec. or slightly more.

Like I say,I don't see how you could get the 8 wrong. Bu,t then I don't know what an integer ratio is.

Sam
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by AB Hammer »

Tesla said that there is something in the numbers 3, 6, 9, 12. other words set by 3. Which seems to fall in line with the Apologia wheel.

Bessler said that they work in pairs. and the witnesses that there was 8 hits per turn. So as it was I believe 8 or 8pairs was used to make these sounds of Bessler's wheel.

Now as for a working wheel I don't see a solid need to make it 8 when it should be able to be done with one moving weight.
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Hi AB Hammer,

IF, he used sliders; I should think the bare minimum would be two sliders, four weights. Two cross bars if you will.
If it can be done with just one weight, then I don't see how. Seams like they really need to be in pairs, so one can help lift the other; no matter how it was done. Or, like I say, I don't know what I'm doing.

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Post by AB Hammer »

Hi Sam

Working with sliders is one approach I have played with a lot. But when using sliders you are moving twice the weight other than a single weight. Of course how that weight is moved is important. The thought I ask is. Is it two weight that work in pairs for each set or is there only two weights that work in pairs to move each other weight in the system?
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Hi AB Hammer,

Yes, you are right, you, have to move two weights. A giant problem with sliders is friction. I had to go to a hardened and ground steel rod with linear ball bearings with 4 bearings on each rod to keep them from binding up.

Their advantage, is the mechanical advantage, (MA), they provide. But,to answer your question; it's just one long rod with a small weight at each end.
Reff. MT-15

AB, have a phone call, will contine soon, Sam
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

AB Hammer,

Where was I? Oh yes, the heavy lifting is done with a spring or springs. So lifting is no longer a problem.

I thought Robinhood46 described it much better than I did. There are two tension springs one pulls the slider one way and the other pulls it the other way. Near the center they are fastened to a single pin.

But this presents a problem. When a slider is more or less vertical and getting ready to lift up / reset, the lower spring does lift it up, But the upper spring is pulling down, preventing the lower spring from lifting the slider all the way up and over.

So when the lower spring is lifting up, the upper spring has to let go / release. Then after 180 degrees of rotation, the opposite has to happen. The good news is, the shift can occur at horizontal when there is't any load on either spring, so the force to do the shift is very small.

I've talked enough, your thoughts, Sam
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Post by AB Hammer »

Hi Sam

Springs have shown themselves to be a fickle effect in wheels. My slide I did several years ago had springs and they helped lift but also retarded movement in other ways. but in some way can help to prevent chaos actions. I am not using springs in any direct movement if I use them at all with some of my newer approaches.
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

AB Hammer,

You are absolutely right! One spring fights the other. I felt the same way for a long time, (2.5 years), springs are no good.

Then it finally dawned on me, there isn't anything wrong with the spring(s) themselves. The problem is, one has to turn on while the other one is off, for want of a better way to describe it.

You can verify this by removing one spring so that there is only one spring on the slider. It will lift it all the way up and over. But of coarse it can't keep going because the other two spring aren't there, (that's with two sliders).

Somehow you have to keep turning one spring off, inhibiting it, while the other one is lifting.


I know it's as clear as mud, Sam
Last edited by Sam Peppiatt on Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by rlortie »

Getting back to topic title "Are we sure of 8 weights"

No, I am not sure there were only 8 weights! I remember reading an eye witness report regarding a box full of weights that Bessler removed during a translocation of the machine.

The sound of a released spring was said to be heard during the replacement of these weights.

Ralph
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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

rlortie,

My contention is that there were 4 sliders double acting, which means they would hit 8 times per revolution or eight thumps. I think that 8 hits are right. You can't get that wrong!

However, could there be more than two weights on one each slider? Maybe so, which would fill the box up better.

As for the spring. A spring or springs will lift / reset the sliders. I think that yes, he was in the process of replacing the weights but had not fastened them to one of the sliders that was in a vertical position, but the spring would have been hooked up. Friction in sliders is a nightmare. I suspect he pulled down on it to see if it was moving freely, then let go of it. Without the weights on it, it would have expanded upward with a loud noise, just as P. Wolff said.

I apologize if I'm screwing up, Sam
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Re: re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by AB Hammer »

rlortie wrote:Getting back to topic title "Are we sure of 8 weights"

No, I am not sure there were only 8 weights! I remember reading an eye witness report regarding a box full of weights that Bessler removed during a translocation of the machine.

The sound of a released spring was said to be heard during the replacement of these weights.

Ralph
Hi Ralph

The string is are we sure of 8 weights. No, but there was 8 hits is all we know. If they work in pairs it could or would make it 16 weights for the later wheels if that was the reasoning. But the wheel in 1712 is still an unknown about the weights. Would it not?
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"

So With out a dream, there is no vision.

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https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos

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re: Are we sure of 8 weights

Post by Robinhood46 »

Using springs to move / assist the weights has always equaled out to zero for my.
Hammer's remark about avoiding chaos, is something i've found too. so I think springs were just for holding weights in place for the timing purposes and avoiding chaos.
At present I am very doubtful that sliders and springs are the answer.
My german is about as good as "one beer please" and "no". I was a larger man not biter.
"The weights work in pairs".
Could this mean that the weights are independent of each other and it is only that when they do work it is two at a time ?
Robin
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