How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving themselves...

a. the intentional perversion of truth; b. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting

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Ed
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How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving themselve

Post by Ed »

Here are a few signs that someone who claims to have a working wheel or device are either a fraud, on the road to becoming a fraud, or just lying.

A - Things to look out for:

1 - They won't give out any details, photos, videos, etc. but keep insisting they have a working device.

2 - They keep exploring other devices (ideas?) even though not even ONE of their "working" devices has been proven. This even goes for some "companies" on the web. Selling many different "working" plans/devices, etc.

3 - They claim the reason they don't want to "tell all" is they are afraid, yet they continue to draw attention to themselves through posts and/or little bits of "evidence" in the form of images, more ideas, crappy videos, advice to us non-havers-of-knowledge, etc. but ultimately things that still show or prove nothing.

4 - They have images, videos and/or a flash animation of some kludge of an idea that is hard to prove simply and they claim it works, but this "evidence" still proves nothing.

5 - They have a working device but don't want to release anything yet because it doesn't fit all of Bessler's clues.

6 - They remote viewed the data for a working device, but it would be too insulting to the entities to reveal anything publically at this time.

7 - They already have a working device now or they are very close, but they want to release it on a specific date...like July 4th...because it will be great for the whole world to be independant.

B - Things to keep in mind:

1 - We only need ONE working device folks! ONE.

2 - Even a video of a working device can be faked easily. Software, equipment and skills needed these days is easy to come by, either directly or through someone else who has and knows how to use them. Making a video of a person sitting at a table or in a workshop with a "working" device can be done in an afternoon with inexpensive equipment/software. As for a crummy video claiming to show a working device, if someone takes the time and has the equipment/skill to capture that device and display it with some technology, they should be able to show more detail, otherwise it's just slight-of-hand for some agenda (money, fame, "look-at-me", more hits to their web site, "proof" they did it first for later once someone else really has a working device, etc.)

3 - The only real way to prove you have a working device is if you can supply the correct information to allow others to replicate it PERIOD. You can't even prove an internal combustion engine works by just showing a car drive down the street. Sure, you can prove a car can drive down the street, but how do we know there is not someone in the engine compartment pedalling like Fred Flintstone?

4 - People are too willing to believe, follow, or give credit to someone who claims they have a working device or idea. Don't cults form this way? Seriously, what is up with this? Are people that incapable/unwilling to build, lazy, don't have time/money/skill/knowledge...but really, really want free energy to exist so will jump on board with the first person who "sounds" like they have something?

5 - We probably have more to fear from fraud or people who "jump the gun" and claim they have something that works or flat-out lie, than we do from corporations, government or academia. How many years has the whole free energy field cried wolf but not produced anything. Forever! The "powers that be" don't even have to lift a finger. The people who claim they are afraid but still talk about it are MORE at risk since they haven't released their data (that is assuming it worked in the first place) yet they are drawing the very attention they claim they don't want.

6 - Due to the urgency of the need for free energy and the imagined fame/fortune that people think they will actually get for coming up with a working device, this seems to be one of the most scattered and easily distracted fields on the net. People play their hands close to their chest. Like the fisherman who sees a fish jump and puts his line over there, some people jump from idea to idea to idea if they hit the slightest problem or are told the idea won't work. Sometimes ideas won't work and they should be told, other times we all (myself as well) jump around too much. I think Wilbur Wright said something to the effect "it's not the ideas we have but the ideas we keep". We need to stay focused. There are many other global "open source" projects that are collected, focused, and much more productive than it seems this field is. These other projects (linux, mame, seti@home, etc.) grow in leaps and bounds compared to this field (well, maybe not seti...they still haven't found an alien :-). What do we have to show for all these years? Just a collection of recycled ideas, a few new ones and unproven "evidence" scatted across the web. Where's the progress?

7 - As Patrick so wisely said in another post, "The easiest person to deceive is ourselves". I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had something and, before I've 100% proven it to myself, wanted to jump the gun and tell someone else...anyone else, only to find out in the process of building..."Ahhhh, no! It ain't gonna work". Sometimes I feel stuck between a rock and a hard plance because on one hand I would like to share everything I have at the moment in the hopes that we can get there quicker, but I also don't want to add to the noise/distraction with yet more unworkable stuff. I don't know about all of you, but it does take a lot out of you...the ups, the downs, the years. Maybe some people get tired of the downs, so they just keep claiming their stuff works...it's easier that way. I sometimes procrastinate on building something I think will work for no other reason than I'm afraid it will end in failure. Not building keeps the idea alive, but "the future won't begin" unless we actually move forward.

8 - We should establish up front with ourselves what we hope to gain from solving this puzzle (proving working free energy) because it will help to get to the goal quicker. I know of some people in this field that would be unhappy if it was solved because they won't have anything to do any more. ???! I have plenty of other ideas I would like to explore or actually make money from. I would like nothing better than ANYONE to solve this so that I can clear my mind of such obsessive subject matter. Of course I struggle, at times, with the ideas of fame/fortune as I think are only human nature. My point here is that I've changed my attitude several time from being secretive until I get money (like Bessler), to I'll forgo money for fame, to I just want it finished so we all can benefit from it and I can get on with my life! Incidentally...I feel better now. :-)

9 - Let's use Bessler as a guide and not an absolute. A working device doesn't need to fit all or any of his clues. It just needs to work and we need to be able to replicate it.

10 - If someone keeps posting all kinds of idea to the web or on forums, they may be just trying to set the stage for them to "prove" that they had the idea first once someone else really does make a working device. One guy on another forum told me he does this exact thing. To those people keep this in mind, Edison didn't invent the light bulb....he just was the first to make the idea work usefully! Who's name does everyone remember...I thought so.

11 - Let's not worry what date the actual first working device gets built and tested on, only that it does and soon.
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by Trev »

It's a slow learning process in which he feels its necessary for us to mentaly absorb critical understanding, before formal release.
Sounds like another variation.
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by Oxygon »

good post, good points...

the only thing I really have worried about is idea theft...

Of all the ideas in the world one doesn't want stolen...

right before the curtain is fully withdrawn...

can you identify...?

Of course you have a point about Edison...

first one to pose the "working" machine should get credit...

So if I have this correct... I'll have a working model sometime in the next decade...

Profoundly Sound Idea... No Building Talent, No Money & Victim of previous idea theft...

Oh Well... Maybe after the ice caps melt I'll get around to it...

:P - It'll be worth more then... (I'm kidding)
"A man with a new idea is a crank until he succeeds."~ M. Twain.
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by coylo »

Not building keeps the idea alive, but "the future won't begin" unless we actually move forward.
I think I know what you mean, you hold back on a build because you like that feeling of hope that it might work, like it was the last idea you were ever gonna have. (as if...)

...and then when you build it and it fails, it's the worst feeling in the world!
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by jim_mich »

coylo wrote:I think I know what you mean, you hold back on a build because you like that feeling of hope that it might work, like it was the last idea you were ever gonna have. (as if...)
Been there. Done that...

Which is why I now use WM2d. It doesn't hurt quite so bad when it doesn't work.

I've got another idea I'm working on now. What I'm trying to say is there is alway another idea. Maybe this one will work???

Each failure teaches something. Learn to learn from the failures. Knowledge is power. If only I could find the knowledge to power a gravity wheel?

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Re: re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving t

Post by Fletcher »

jim_mich wrote:If only I could find the knowledge to power a gravity wheel?
You have the knowledge, your mind just hasn't got the indexing quite right yet to bring it forth in the right combination for you.

It's a bit like when I loose something, it's strange how I always find it in the last place I look :)
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by Ed »

Learn to learn from the failures. Knowledge is power.
If it didn't take so much time to do and keep track of, it would be nice to have an animated "Museum of unworkable devices" from all the simulations we do, but I'm trying to come up with the one that works not be the custodian of the ones that don't. :-)
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by ken_behrendt »

I can identify 150% with everything in this thread. Not building is depressing because it GUARANTEES you will not achieve PM...building is depressing because, based on one's past sad experiences, it most likely will not lead to PM plus you'll be more tired and broke afterwards.

So, how to resolve this dilemma? Well, using WM2D seems to be a logical solution. That and staying mentally active on the subject and CONSTANTLY pondering new approaches. Of course, there could be the possibility that WM2D might say a design would not work when, in fact, it would (although that is probably unlikely). However, it can spare one a LOT of wasted effort.

As for me...I would never proclaim that I had a working device UNLESS it was actually sitting on my workbench spinning away. The most I ever claim is that I have something I consider promising. Like most inventors, I tend to be somewhat secretive...I wouldn't want someone else to steal my ideal, just in case it is the BIG one! However, I do like to keep others informed of any progress I might make or even failures I'm experiencing. I'm not ashamed of failures...if one has not had them, then one is not really trying. Like Bessler said in Apolegia, an anvil receives many blows...if you want to be the one to do it, then you had better be as tough as that anvil because you are gotting to have to be if you want to succeed.

I am convinced that Bessler's "discovery" was a matter of sheer luck! He had tried so many configurations that, eventually, through the laborious process of elimination, he managed to stumble upon it. He was obviously so obsessed with the subject that he was starting to have dreams about it! Although luck gave him the final answer, his prior failures had helped prepare his mind to recognize the final design that worked. Perhaps someone with lesser preparation would have looked at the same mechanism and immediately dismissed it as useless!

ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by MC »

ken_behrendt wrote:I am convinced that Bessler's "discovery" was a matter of sheer luck!
I think ‘sheer luck’ is a bad choice of words. Bessler was dedicated and thorough in his search for perpetual motion.

I have to agree to the followingÂ…
ken_behrendt wrote:Perhaps someone with lesser preparation would have looked at the same mechanism and immediately dismissed it as useless!
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by ken_behrendt »

MC...

Let me just state that I am not trying to put down Bessler's accomplishment by stating that I believed it was the result of pure luck. Actually, I GREATLY admire his various mechanical skills and tenacity. If it was not for these, then he most certainly would never have gotten to the point where he could get lucky at all.

However, over the centuries, many, many very dedicated inventors who were probably just as skilled as Bessler and just as dedicated, failed to discover the mystery mechanism that allowed Bessler to achieve a working perpetual motion. I attribute this to the fact that they just were not lucky like Bessler.

Yes, I think Bessler was systematic to a point. His goal was to get a wheel whose weights would continue to maintain their c.g on the descending side of the wheel as it rotated. Without something like WM2D at his disposal and without being a "profound" mathematician, he had to rely on his clockmaker's instincts as to what MIGHT work.

I can imagine that after ten YEARS and hundreds of attempts, he was probably at his wits end and on the verge of quitting. He probably tried praying and fasting and carrying good luck charms...all to no avail. And then that fateful night came along when he had a special dream. Perhaps, as suggested in Apologia, he dreamt of children playing with heavy clubs among broken pillars or of a herd of lazy horses moving about in a field. His unconscious mind, computer that it was, had solved the problem while he slept and presented the solution to him as a series of dream symbols which he quickly translated into mechanical terms upon awakening. The next thing he knew...his next model was WORKING!

So, even if one chooses to attribute Bessler's success to luck, that really is not a put down of the man or his many efforts over the years. I am currently excited about a design I have for the secret mechanism and, to be honest, I have to admit that I just stumbled upon it while sketching to pass some time as I recover from my recent health crisis. Like Bessler, I do not think I would have made the critical sketch if I had not been physically pursuing the solution for decades. I'm not ashamed of being lucky...just glad I was (exactly how lucky will, however, have to remain until I can get back the energy to start building again).

ken




On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
MC
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by MC »

Hi Ken,

Anybody pursuing the solution for decades and finding it is well earned, not lucky!

Get well soon!

MC
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by rlortie »

It is my impression that Bessler was smarter than we give him credit for. I think of him as not only an inventor, artist and clock maker but another Nastrodomis (not in spell check).

If he gave his invention away we would not have appreciated it as much as we will working for it the last 300 years of generations.

There are some things better left unknown until we are ready to except them or necessity demands them. I believe that time is approaching quickly and Besslers prophecy of a receptive person will unlock it.

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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by Guest »

so, like, ive got an idea that isnt so much perpetual energy as reusable control of energy. i was really surprised to find out about all this bessler stuff, but it came up when i plonked the words gravity mill into a search engine. i guess, having read your post, that the best thing to do is throw it up into the air and see if anyone catches it well enough. thats the problem though; we intuit that free energy needs resposibility to benefit us. when people start blaming each other for being rich or poor its because:

(Insert hypothosis here). Ok. this is my anonymous contribution to the nets obsession with free energy:

imagine a pole with a spiral round it, a screw that stands vertically against the force of gravitee.

now imagine two to four propellers linked to dynamos which are angled downward at the same ( average ) angle as the spiral on the pole. these are housed on a series of ball bearings or something that correspond to the screw pole; thus enabling the dynamos to travell round and round the screw, wringing electricity from the force of gravity, which can then, i presume, be stored and transmitted conventionally.

that, fellow enthusastical help the world help itselfers, is essentially it. this does in fact seem to me to be able to produce electrical energy very cheaply by employing a very small amount of physical labour: namely returning the housing to the top of the screw.
but, since the propeller housings are cheap and easy you could get a really tall screw pole ( sky scraper size!) and throw a load of them down in succession, which might possibly maximise the work to erg ratio.

Aha! you say, what method is there for transferring the dynamically produced electricity into the storage capacitors? something that spins around that much is gonna get tangled up with wires! youd better think of some good art and quick!

well, i did have a few ideas about that. but i'm no expert on electrical transmission, so feel free to think you know better.

how about a freewheeling cuff on top that picks up the 'lectric in burst succession an fires it down a wire? seems reasonable. i guess it depends on the sort of current that you are trying to resolve from the action of gravity/air resistance.

so thats one idea. plus you could make some hydroelectric gutterpipes, so when it rains the operators dont have to get wet.


most people ive spoken to about seem kinda reticent to make any joyous whooping noises. but ive got a feeling that theres something in this idea that will be worth persuing

i'm unable to be completely anonymous on the net, but correspondance on the subject is welcomed( pdrh20@bath.ac.uk )

but feel free to make your own prototype and tinker to your hearts content, energy dudes. as confucius is reported to have said : let there be no evil in your thoughts.

peace #}^)
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re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving thems

Post by ovyyus »

Sounds like crazy ol Mitch to me - at home right here in the fraud forum :D The cycles are predictable.
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Re: re: How to tell someone is a fraud, lying or deceiving t

Post by jim_mich »

Anonymous wrote:imagine a pole with a spiral round it, a screw that stands vertically against the force of gravitee.

now imagine two to four propellers linked to dynamos which are angled downward at the same ( average ) angle as the spiral on the pole. these are housed on a series of ball bearings or something that correspond to the screw pole; thus enabling the dynamos to travell round and round the screw, wringing electricity from the force of gravity, which can then, i presume, be stored and transmitted conventionally.
This is a joke, right? Or maybe you're still a little young and inexperienced?

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