M. Turbine III

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

The purpose of this thread is too combine real numbers to the simulated model being developed.

It would be good too take advice from the physical builders on a practical set of dimensions and masses.

The ones I have plugged into the model so far are.

Material used steel of density 7,750 kg per cubic metre.

Spring length at rest 2.0 metres.
Spring radius 0.1 metres.

Spring strength 5,500 newtons per metre.

Rod length 4.5 metres.
Rod radius 0.05 metres.

Weight length 0.5 metres.
Weight radius 0.25 metres.

Hub length 0.5 metres.
Hub radius 0.25 metres.

Hub axles length 0.35 metres.
Hub axles radius 0.05 metres.

All in metric

The target is the first illustration wheel shown on my web site.

If members can agree on a more practical set of dimensions then
I will use them instead of these metric quantities.

All ask is the units are in metric.

Think of this as a blue print specification for a practical device.

Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
eccentrically1
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:25 pm

Post by eccentrically1 »

what do you mean when you wonder if the dimensions are practical? That it would be too cumbersome to build?
rlortie
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8475
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: Stanfield Or.

re: M. Turbine III

Post by rlortie »

"To cumbersome to build" will depend on builders aptitude, resources, and empirical skills, working with the material used.

If you are going to mount this machine on stanchions mounted to a roll-away platform keep it practical. I suggest you limit it within the height and width of typical door openings you may encounter. For example I do not exceed 1.98m in total height. I stay within a diameter of 1.8288 metre

As for your steel density, 7,750 kg per cubic metre. Are you are building a armored tank, or is my conversion calculator amiss, I am getting a reading of 483.8+ pounds per cubic foot! This is more dense than Alan's or my blacksmith anvil.


I have my apprehensions that your design will fail, falling into the "width for height" category of designs. I hope you can prove me wrong! I wish you all the luck I can muster.

Ralph
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

@rlortie


Think of this as a blue print specification for a practical device.


That is good advice too use a typical door opening.

So I am happy to limit the diameter within 1.8288 metres.

The modelling is based on an average density and cylinders components.

The main reason for using the initial large numbers are to test the model.
The steel density was taken from the web which reports 490 lb/ft.3

We could use another material like oak for example; with it's density etc.
To me it is a number to be loaded into the equation.

Checking the KE - PE = 0 and finding where chaotic behaviour can be found and managed.

I am building a computer model and an open blue print specification; not an actual build.

However the skilled builders can easily guild the spec' in a practical
direction.

P.S. The initial prototype acts like a double pendulum.
Where the rotation is stable, but the sliding interact is chaotic.

Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

There is so much to do put this is what the simulation does.

Really I have to prove to myself and members this simulation and maths
are correct. Let all of us assume this is just odd.

These shots show the rod sliding to the right due to a small slope.
Then goes into a pendulum swing.

The third image is the rod back to where it started.

The fourth is rotation 2 and the last image is rotation 3.

The sim goes stable looking like the last path.

very odd?

Ho good old preview - work from the bottom image up.

Hint: Click on the last image and use the previous link.
Look up near the top right above the previous image.
You will see them in the correct order.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
sleepy
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:53 pm
Location: earth

re: M. Turbine III

Post by sleepy »

Howdy agor,
It is my opinion that no matter which direction this design turns,its going to keel.Firstly,you are asking the springs to change their strength so that they can retrieve the weight that they previously were weak enough to let go.Secondly,you are not actually taking advantage of the pendulum action as the arms are fixed to the wheel and not allowed to accelerate as a true pendulum would.And thirdly,because of the springs and gravity and centrifugal force,the arms are not to going to move when you want them to.Both the release and the retraction are going to be many degrees later than what is shown.But as always,thank you so much for sharing openly.It takes real guts and a leap of faith to put your design out there.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
User avatar
ME
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3512
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:37 pm
Location: Netherlands

re: M. Turbine III

Post by ME »

Agor95 wrote:If members can agree on a more practical set of dimensions then
I will use them instead of these metric quantities.
Nooooo !!! for your own sake, don't change your units!!

Anyway,
I have this old wooden testwheel: Mass 2 kg, Diameter 0.45 m, MoI-factor 0.679
When I put 5 grams at the rim then it somehow refuses to swing like a happy pendulum as was clearly predicted by my simulator.
Instead, that weight just sits there while the wheel acts like nothing happened: just challanging friction and my patience.
When I replace it with 15 grams then this seems enough to make the wheel go from 3-o'clock to a dissapointing 8:30.

Perhaps it could do better with another wheel, but that's besides the point.
The point is: Consider getting yourself a test-wheel of the sturdiest and/or easiest material you can physically handle. Then model the values you find and measure.
Once you "know your wheel" (of whichever kind) then you'll also "feel" when it starts to behave a bit "unusual" when you add some newly found construction... Then take this new behavior and encode it into your app. Then simulate your next move...
Be prepared that with two creative intermixing things you may put your mind into hyperdrive because it creates at least four different fluctuating perspectives out of one wheel - That is: two changing variants in your head and two changing variants on your workbench.
And all that takes is one simple wheel.
(Disclaimer: You may not actually shoot-off as advertised here, but you still got yourself a test-wheel)

While you're at it, it's maybe best to temporarily put those heavy-duty suspensions (from a buggy?) back in storage until you know how to construct your "Optimus Prime".

Have fun.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

Thank You ME for your sound advice.

The first thing I want to say is; my profound respect to the core for all the builders over the centuries.

It takes real guts and a leap of faith to put your design out there.

It is a leap of faith and also a wish not to cause harm.

I have been checking the programming during the weekend.
To break it's action. The goal is to convert it into 'Javascript'.
The purpose is to put it into the helper web site so we all can see the
behaviour.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

1. It's going too keel.

I hope so keeling is part of the action.

2. Asking the spring to change their strength.

I used a standard spring force equation.

3. The arms are fixed to the wheel.

The arms slide through the axle.

4. The arms are not going to move as you want them to.

The arms can move anyway they want to I do not mine.

5. Release and retraction delayed by many degrees.

This is exactly what is required for the interia to cause an effect.

Thank you for your support

Text descriptions are limiting even pictures a functional demo is my hope.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
sleepy
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:53 pm
Location: earth

re: M. Turbine III

Post by sleepy »

I'm sensing a huge communication gap. Let me put it this way.Once the arm starts to extend,the weight at the end is going to have increased force on the spring due to the "fling" effect.Now as it hits bottom dead center, this fling effect will reach it's peak,and there will be more force pulling down and out on the weight than there was at the beginning. Since the spring is weak enough to let the arm begin moving down at 4 oclock,it will not be strong enough at 8 oclock due to the increased force of the weight.To see this you will either need to run a VERY advanced sim,or you will need to build it.Just one arm will do the trick.You will immediately see that the weight lingers at the outside position too long and slows the wheel.You might even be able to see this problem with a rubber band and a heavy nut.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

Hi sleepy

We can always spring back form the communication gap :-)

Agreed a weak spring will result in keeling.

A strong spring will hold the bar's center of gravity near the pivot point.

Again a strong sim or a weak simple sim.

Hopefully the interesting results will be in the middle.

p.s. off to do some more analysis.

Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

Bessler got the better of me and I have used a virtual hammer to my sim and smashed it to bits.

After copying it to several locations of cause.

Why? The sim was a script so each bar was a copy past job.

Now it is OOP [Object-Oriented Programming] style.

Each object [bar,spring & hub] you see has its own attributes and methods. Like weight, MOI, momentum, what is looks like etc.

Notice the center of mass marker in the end masses?

This allows the bar to calculate it's torque [caltorque method]

Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

Here are some images from the rewritten sim.

The base sim is written and I can now explore the different starting conditions.

Good hunting
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
User avatar
agor95
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7458
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Earth Orbit
Contact:

re: M. Turbine III

Post by agor95 »

I have been researching [playing] with various setting with the sim.
Fast Slow, Strong Springs, Initial Rod positions, Spring Profile Strengths etc

This is an image of a stable rod vibration path.

I plan to record the Theta, Rod Position and Time.

Then load them into a player on the Helper web site.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
sleepy
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:53 pm
Location: earth

re: M. Turbine III

Post by sleepy »

Agor,
I just noticed that in the last image you posted,the spacings between the arms are not equal.That's really gonna throw off the sim results.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
Post Reply