A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

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Fletcher
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by Fletcher »

Hi charly2 .. your description of your mass balanced but dynamically force unbalanced inertial theory seems to cover many of the Bessler 'clues'.

It also strongly reminds me of his extravagant and flamboyant swirling signature, as I imagine your description of path and motions.

I see why you said earlier in your thread why jim_mich was on to something because he too was an advocate for mass balanced dual mechs (IIRC two and two) that were dynamically force unbalanced in rotation. So your approaches seem similar conceptually. There have been other attempts at inertial drives on the net that also control weight/mass path. The idea being to create an imbalance of force in a direction. So far, AFAIK, Newtons Third han't been violated in these mechanical devices. But I don't think I have heard of any that use gearing to a stator to change direction and path each 180 degrees as you propose.

I should mention that many are put off using stators because supposedly Bessler said 'nothing hangs from the axle and all must go around together' (paraphrased) - take that with a grain of salt. Personally I don't care - just get a self-pumping wheel going mate.
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by agor95 »

Hi Gill

There is a related chance of a non-bessler device.

It has been talked about before. However it needs investigating.

The device is two counter rotating wheels with 9 ball bearings.
The 9th bearing is the power source.

I believe a builder has tried a physical device.

The physics and sim would help.

I am working on the sim is taking my time of cause.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by charly2 »

Hi Fletcher, yes, the extravagant swirl signature indeed depicts the two opposed weights traveling freely around the wheel without the limiters.
About the negation of something hanging from the axle, I always had in mind (I do not know why, may be I´m wrong) the acusation of Wagner and the ssupposedweighted mechanism hanging from the axle, trying to show the hoax according to him; or a weight hanging from a pulley in the axle moving the wheel; lol, may be my misunderstanding leaded me here.
I personally do not like the idea of a stator fixed by gravity, when running under load the stator bob weight would rise up (due the torque of the mech) on the side going down in counter direction of the wheel, if, for a short moment a considerable overload occurr there is the possibility that the stator bob climb to the top and rotate against the wheel direction, producing a big shaky unbalanced mess and the eventual stop, a heavy and stiff support would be needed to keep the wheel in place.
I prefer to connect the stator outside the wheel to one pillar stand, that pillar will always be stressed by the torque but the risk above mentioned will be eliminated.
I told you so...
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by Fletcher »

If the stator (artificial horizon) is massive then little chance it would rotate gaining GPE and go over the top etc. But that depends on the work load put on the wheel I guess. Sure a fixed stator would do the job and never move. If JB used a hanging stator he did it to hide the fact that there was one, else he would do just as you are going to do.

Like the fact that you found some familiarity in the scrolling signature, and an path asymmetry after the limiters are enacted.

I can't remember about Wagner and hanging weights, but I do know JB mentioned weights hanging from chains e.g. in the manner of pendulum clocks where the drive weight is raised up and suspended on a chain that lower the weight again.
Bessler wrote:"Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs, or other hanging weights which require winding up, or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, these weights, on the contrary, are the essential parts, and constitute the perpetual motion itself; since from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis, which in its turn must also move."

- Johann E. E. Bessler, 1717
Bessler in wiki wrote:"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712." - AP pg 295

"by making the true claim - that no weights hang from the axle of my wheel." - AP pg 281

"In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle." - AP pg 361


Bessler in wiki wrote:"If one weight is giving an upward impetus, another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one." - AP pg 362
Two acceleration phases with mitigated or nil deceleration as you suggest ?!
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by charly2 »

This gain in GPE, I suspect Fletcher, is the reason for the self starting condition of the first two wheels, better if after the stop counter rotate the wheel a little for a better initial push. One component of the transmission was freewheels on the arms (like the two opposed in the Asa Jackson Wheel) which allowed the motion in one direction and made possible to store that GPE gain in the stator weight, and of course the automatic reversion of the transmision once the limiters/springs were reached.

The weights are interconnected, one is giving an impulse in one direction and the other in the opposite direction both propulsing the wheel, no matter if they go inward or outward, both motions accelerate the wheel. It could sound contradictory for someone, but remember the static balanced condition.
That is exacly why JB said he understood why his earlier designs did not work, it was obvious for him as should be for those who now understand the principle.
Metaphoricaly speeking abut the "nut", one acceleration hit would crack it and an opposite deacceleration hit would restore it. The nut needs two accelerating strokes in order to keep it cracked, smashed after one or two turns.
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by ovaron »

@Fletcher
Bessler in wiki wrote:
"If one weight is giving an upward impetus, another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one." - AP pg 362
With this quote Bessler didn't describe his own wheel, but the interpretation of Wagner (which is obviously wrong). He (Bessler) makes fun of Wagner.
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re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by Paul T »

My pendulum experiments fitted with one way clutch bearings have shown this statement to be true. As soon as the pendulum has swung to its full extent it then becomes a lever. The pendulum on the opposite side remains a lever until it swings again.

However, if it hasn't got 8 pendulums placed at 45 degrees to each other on the wheel, the frequency will not be substantial to continue this movement.

This is the theory that I am very soon to prove but it does fit with the statement.

"If one weight is giving an upward impetus, another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one." - AP pg 362
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Re: re: A Cure for an Insipid little Habit?

Post by WaltzCee »

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 209#157209
charly2 wrote:Ok, seems like, it is impossible to imagine a running wheel without gravity.

Lets imagine a pendulum, on of the most efficient way of accelerate a weight by gravity, it is suspended by hand at 1:00 o'clock or near 12:00 on the right side, now let it go, it will accelerate cw until reach 6:00, past that point the acceleration reverts and with low friction the pendulum will reach 11:00, the spectacular acceleration has gone, take out some energy of this and you know what happens, nothing new.
Thinking out of the box, it would be great if this acceleration from 1:00 to 6:00 could be replicated but now upward form 6:00 to1:00 again, obviously gravity is omnipresent and unidirectional, it won´t happen, simply.
In an inertial or motion wheel (statically balanced) the unidirectional gravity force is eliminated, the real problem has gone.
Now the brainstorm, find a mechanism that works influenced by the rotation of the wheel, it should make the same that the pendulum does: one side of acceleration (1:00 or 12:00 to 6:00) and the other side of deacceleration (6:00 to 11:00) from the perspective of the mechanism not from the wheel.
Use only the acceleration segment of the path, do not let it go to the deacceleration side, discard that one; now revert the motion and change the transmission to reverse (connected to the stator), prevent the natural path, now another motion in the opposite direction will to accelerate it again and prevent to go to the deacceleration zone again, from here the cycle repeats again.
Swinging weights in and out at the same time. This how a non gravity wheel works, using the acceleration part of two motions and discarding the rest.
It must be an inertial mechanism, statically balanced but not dynamically, one side heavy and the other light, speaking of force or acceleration (like a pendulum swinging under gravity, heavy and light, acceleration and deacceleration).
It would be as if a pendulum accelerate in both directions downward and upward. Always generating more acceleration or power all the time.

The mechanic of the motion is relatively simple but not so easy to understand at first.
Hope this give another thinking line.
That is 2018 thx5
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