Itemizing P.M.

[Michael]

Gravity of course. Most people here seem to be working on this.

I want to put a new listing for this. One which I have never seen people discuss that much. Scott mentioned it over a year ago. I've done work with it over seven years ago, so I know how powerful it can be, but I still refuse to disclose all the details of what I experimented on. The basis of it is the double pendulum.
Maybe it seems to complicated to chaotic for people to touch upon but there is real power in it form of motion, and ways that motion can be tapped.

Magnets, of course.

Centrifugal force. Can it be used for perpetual motion? It all comes down to this. Does a weight that is thrown outwards by Centrifugal force loose its radial velocity? The r.p.m.'s will slow down of course, but that's not the same thing. Jonathan, have any input here?

Heat, and pressure creation. The idea is to recycle difference of temperature and pressure effectively making gains on each cycle.

Reg.

Mike

[etjoe]

What really gets me is that without air friction, a feather and a heavy weight will fall (be accelerated by gravity) at the same rate.

-e

[graham]

Centrifugal force. Can it be used for perpetual motion? It all comes down to this. Does a weight that is thrown outwards by Centrifugal force loose its radial velocity? The r.p.m.'s will slow down of course, but that's not the same thing.

Well now Michael let me say that when I first started experimenting , years ago I took the CF route and tried all kinds of arrangements to capture an imbalance that would drive my wheel.

I had rotating pendulums that would be constrained on the upside and allowed to swing out on the downside. Of course in swinging out on the downside the weights would move upwards and outwards . Their radial velocity was slowed by the upward swing and the inertia of a weight moving from a slower inner orbit to a faster outer orbit could not be overcome by the overbalancing achieved .

Graham

[Michael]

Think of a horizontal wheel Graham.

[graham]

A horizontal wheel ? I'm not sure if I can imagine something like that Michael. Are you saying that on the descending side the weight moves horizontally out ?
If this is the case then this I believe would still slow the wheel because in travelling out to its new position it would still only have the angular velocity that it had when it were closer to the axis. this would in effect cause a slowing of the rotation .

Now if you have in mind something like MT63 where the ascending weight moves in and the descending weight moves out thats another story however both weights have to be restored and that's the hard part.

Graham

[rlortie]

Gravity of course. Most people here seem to be working on this.

I want to put a new listing for this. One which I have never seen people discuss that much. Scott mentioned it over a year ago. I've done work with it over seven years ago, so I know how powerful it can be, but I still refuse to disclose all the details of what I experimented on. The basis of it is the double pendulum.
Maybe it seems to complicated to chaotic for people to touch upon but there is real power in it form of motion, and ways that motion can be tapped. Magnets, of course.

Michael,

You are barking up my tree, I am very prone to the pendulum and have done considerable research and tinkering on the Idea myself. I recently built one, a five footer with Celtic cross arm as depicted in besslers popular drawings. I have a pendulum mobile sitting on my desk that is actually three arms that look like a propeller. It is activated with magnets and a very small air core coil connected to a "Hall" switch. It runs for ever on two "A" size battery's. It starts by swinging as a pendulum and keeps building amplitude until it makes it over the top, then it revolves for about four turns and then starts back the other way and repeats. I will pass on more description if anyone is interested.

You mention magnets, If you are familiar with H. Johnson or Minato
you know that the only way they could get full revolution was by hand pumping the stator magnet. I on the other hand believe that this can be corrected with a pendulum. I believe that eventualy this same problem will be exposed for the popular Perendev motor as well.

Ralph

[Michael]

Hi guys, I just got off work and am very tired and don't have a lot of time, so I am keeping this short for today. Graham I didn't mean Bessler's wheel ran horizontally, I was making menion of a principle of possible perpetual motion and to see if its valid you need to contemplate it working horizontally to avoid what you mentioned. Jonathan was working on the math, I hope he still is. He said he was getting weird answers. Ralph, I'll post more on the double pendulum soon.

Michael

[sleepy]

I think you're talking about the face of the wheel being parallel to the floor,right?Using centrifugal force in a plane where gravity is equal on all sides?Interesting concept.

[graham]

Yes sleepy that's what I get from Michaels post.

If the wheel is in fact horizontal then we can take gravity out of the picture. In fact what we would have would be an arrangement that would resemble a speed governor .
Weights would be thrown out as speed increases but where would the energy input come from ?

Back to you Michael.

Graham

[Michael]

Hi Graham,

I'll post more when Jonathan comes up with the math.


Michael

[rlortie]

Hi guys, I just got off work and am very tired and don't have a lot of time, so I am keeping this short for today. Graham I didn't mean Bessler's wheel ran horizontally, I was making menion of a principle of possible perpetual motion and to see if its valid you need to contemplate it working horizontally to avoid what you mentioned. Jonathan was working on the math, I hope he still is. He said he was getting weird answers. Ralph, I'll post more on the double pendulum soon.

Michael

Michael,

The idea of a horizontal wheel with interacting pendulum or pendulums is a receptive idea. At present this forum is based and influenced by the vertical wheel. To absorb a horizontal wheel will lead to the concept of a wheel not horizontal but on a non-vertical axis or inclined plane. the inclined plane will use less energy to move the "over the top" weights and a mechanical leveraged advantage to get them there. My example is, would your rather pick up a loaded wheelbarrow to set on a higher plane or push it up a ramp.

Ralph

[sleepy]

By the same token,you're going to sacrifice energy on the down side,also.Which wheelbarrow will hit the ground first,the one you push down the ramp,or the one you just drop?But you might be able to use the downward force of gravity,AND the tendency for the arm/weight to want to hang away from the wheel.It's an extra source of "push" anyway.Maybe one of you mechanical types can figure out how to harness it.

[Michael]

The idea for centrifugal force is this. If a weight was allowed to move freely by centrifugal force would it loose radial velocity when it came to a stop? That is the question. Sure it would loose R.P.M.'s but that's not the same thing and that can be rectified by moving the axel. I think it would loose radial velocity but I am not sure. If it doesn't then there is free energy to be tapped here.

If it does loose radial energy then there are two points and a gradient in between.

[jim_mich]

Michael,

I've been trying to figure out what it is you are asking about here, and I'm still confused? What do you mean by radial energy?

When a weight swings around an axle point it's simply a special case of momentum. If the connecting rod or string is suddenly severed then the weight will immediately travel in a straight line, which is the same direction it was traveling that tiny split second before being let loose. And if a rod or string were to re-connect then the weight would immediately swing around the new axle point at the same velocity as the straight line and the previous rotation.

The energy of the moving weight will not have changed during all of this. Only the direction of movement will have been redirected.

[rlortie]

Maybe this will help,

Centripetal Force
Centripetal Force, a center-seeking force that causes an object to move in a circular path. For example, suppose a ball is tied to a string and swung around in a circle at a constant velocity. The ball moves in a circular path because the string applies a centripetal force to the ball. According to Sir Isaac Newton's first law of motion, a moving object will travel in a straight path unless acted on by a force (see Mechanics). So, if the string were suddenly cut, the ball would no longer be subject to the centripetal force and would travel in a straight line in a direction tangent to the circular path of the ball (if not for the force of gravity). As another example, suppose a person is riding on a merry-go-round. As the merry-go-round rotates, the person must hang onto the ride to keep from falling off. Where the person grasps the ride, a centripetal force is applied to the individual that keeps the person moving in a circular path. If the person were to let go, he or she would travel in a straight line (if gravity were absent). In general, the centripetal force that needs to be applied to an object of mass m that is traveling in a circular path of radius r at a constant velocity v is the following:
mv^2/r

Often, centripetal force is confused with centrifugal force. While centripetal force is a real force,—that is, the force is due to the influence of some object or field—centrifugal force is a fictitious force. A fictitious force is present only when a system is examined from an accelerating frame of reference. If the same system is examined from a non-accelerating frame of reference, all the fictitious forces disappear. For example, a person on a rotating merry-go-round would experience a centrifugal force that pulls away from the center of the ride. The person experiences this force only because he or she is on the rotating merry-go-round, which is an accelerating frame of reference. If the same system is analyzed from the sidewalk next to the merry-go-round, which is a non-accelerating frame of reference, there is no centrifugal force. The individual on the sidewalk would only note the centripetal force that keeps the individual moving in a circular path. In general, real forces are present regardless of whether the reference frame used is accelerating or not accelerating; fictitious forces are present only in an accelerating frame of reference.


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Ralph