Bessler's clues and people's solutions.

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[WaltzCee]

One thing that I'm not understanding about this Bessler wheel is that Bessler said that combining several of the MTs would lead to discovering the movement. So when people come up with supposed solutions that have nothing to do with any of the MTs, I'm left wondering what the hell is going on?

 There could be other solutions. You might ask someone directly. Could be they don't even know.

I don't think all the clues relate to PM. I also don't think there is only one way to cause a preponderance of weights in principle much less the mechanics.

I was born rogue. Maybe start with an idea then look at the clues for some relationships.

May the best crank win. :P

[MrVibrating]

@silent

Very well done!

..i've also noted the links between MT 133/4 and the Toys page. It IS all terribly confusing tho, isn't it? What's the 'square vs circle' thing about? Dimensions of forces or fields, such as CF force vs gravity, or momentum vs KE?

I believe what we're looking at sir is depicting an interaction, in Bessler's arcane symbolism, or information about a type of interaction; a certain interplay of forces and fields, or elements / components of motion and gravity.. the 'elements of mechanics' as Bessler had derived them for himself.

Note that the vis viva dispute was an ongoing hot topic at the time - he'd've been most keenly interested, since it cuts to the very heart of his quest... so the likely elements to be depicting are obviously gravity, momentum, counter-momentum, inertia, velocity, "work" or F*d / T*a, the "potential to perform work" or KE.. etc. etc. These are the components an OU interaction are implicitly derived from.

The lazy tongs, too, are a metaphor for just such an 'element'.

Work backwards, like me - we're only here cos the evidence is so compelling that the impossible thing actually happened.. so own that presumption for a while and reverse engineer it from first principles, only reading Bessler clues the same way you'd decipher the Pioneer plaque - Bessler's 'cipher' is this system of elements of motion and the interactions between them - the 'stuff' of an OU interaction, in terms of its physical solution, as best he could grasp it. He was doing a Carl Sagan, leaving an IP claim to posterity, as much as buried treasure..

So you've got some mass, moving at some speed, thus it has some momentum and KE, yet it has no stator, so how'd it get the momentum? Solve that, then move on to the challenge of limiting its input energy cost to below its KE value, and job done.

We know its possible, it's just bleedin' mechanics, there's finite permutations and nowhere to hide if we're thorough and clear-headed..

[Fletcher]

One thing that I'm not understanding about this Bessler wheel is that Bessler said that combining several of the MTs would lead to discovering the movement.

So when people come up with supposed solutions that have nothing to do with any of the MTs, I'm left wondering what the hell is going on?

silent

JB said "no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them."

JB differentiates between a motion (his principle of Perpetual Motion); and a movement (mechanical activity) - two separate but related things, imo. So we might as individuals figure what the movement is but not know what his principle of PM is to apply it to. Or visa versa.

Some people do their own thing, some exclusively study Bessler's clues, and some do a combination of both. Some like me believe there is only one way to mechanically arrange true mechanical PM. Therefore I prefer to study Bessler's history in that regard, altho I do have original thought from time to time ;7) Some believe there is more than one way to achieve mechanical true PM, so believe it possible to find a solution unrelated to Bessler's solution.

Has anyone ever discovered any similarities in the toys page and other aspects of the MTs?

silent

The Toy's Page may give you a movement (mechanical) but imo won't lead you directly to Bessler's true mechanical PM principle. Tho he does say there is something extraordinary for anyone able to apply them in a different way. And these mechanical actions are reflected in the other things JB mentions in earlier sections of MT. IMO.

I'll list them here ..

1. A Connectedness Principle must be enacted.

2. The Correct handle and construction is required.

3. A Prime Mover is required.

4. There is something special about the action of Scissors (Storks Bills) that must be factored in a successful design.

Take all of that and decipher it correctly and you will have Bessler's solution to true mechanical PM. Or don't decipher it, and just think it up for yourself (probably quicker) - then merrily reverse engineer the clues as a check.

Leave just one out, or all or some out, and you have your very own theoretical solution to true mechanical PM. Whether it would work or not is another story !

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
I Can agree points 1-3.
point 4 is only for a special construction.
Multiple different constructions are possible.
you See that in the different Start conditions of the wheel.
the question for me was only where the Start energy is located.
when we have a selfstarting device, then the complete System is under stress, only release the brake.

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[WaltzCee]

For someone named Silent you sure do talk a lot. :)

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[DrWhat]

nice one silent. Here is an oldie of mine, never built

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[Georg Künstler]

Hi Silent,
you had a great idea, which I will support here.

when we have 2 rolling cylinders with the same dimensions, then a cylinder is heavier than the other.
Say steel 7.2 gr and lead 11.2 gr per cccm.
when they now be placed together, they never can achieve equilibrium
one side is always heavier then the other.

They are arranged in that way that when they come together they always generate torque.