Faster than the wind

[Senax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI&t=2s

I believe this can lead to a deeper understanding or what is going on in the BesslerWheel.
More specifically the simpler example of the principle using a cotton reel.

[agor95]

So what have you in mind and did you have breakfast before you made your post this morning?

Good Morning

[johannesbender]

"Going faster than the wind" , IMO , is a misleading description , it would have been a fitting description if the source of the speed gained was actually the wind , I find it silly because the vehicle cannot go faster than its source ,and saying it goes faster than the wind is correct however the source is the wind plus the thrust , so when you add those together it would seem likely to me that the vehicle does not go faster than its source , it seems people think of the wind as the source.

Its like saying "going faster than the wind" when the wind is not the only or complete source for the speed of an object , like for instance when a rocket is attached to that object.

[Senax]

"Going faster than the wind" , IMO , is a misleading description , it would have been a fitting description if the source of the speed gained was actually the wind , I find it silly because the vehicle cannot go faster than its source ,and saying it goes faster than the wind is correct however the source is the wind plus the thrust , so when you add those together it would seem likely to me that the vehicle does not go faster than its source , it seems people think of the wind as the source.

Its like saying "going faster than the wind" when the wind is not the only or complete source for the speed of an object , like for instance when a rocket is attached to that object.

The wind is the source of its thrust.

[johannesbender]

It is not the primary and only source , as shown and proven the source is the thrust and the wind added together , without wind there can still be thrust as the vehicle traverses on the ground while it still moves , that thrust is enough to contribute to the total push on the vehicle as shown by the treadmill where wind is not the primary factor , when the wind is added to this effect ie the wind from behind pushing the vehicle plus the thrust from the vehicle via traversing its wheels across the surface to spin the blades, you get the "source" in total.

[Senax]

It is not the primary and only source , as shown and proven the source is the thrust and the wind added together , without wind there can still be thrust as the vehicle traverses on the ground while it still moves , that thrust is enough to contribute to the total push on the vehicle as shown by the treadmill where wind is not the primary factor , when the wind is added to this effect ie the wind from behind pushing the vehicle plus the thrust from the vehicle via traversing its wheels across the surface to spin the blades, you get the "source" in total.

That thrust come from the wind. Without the wind there would be no thrust. :o)

[agor95]

When the wind is added to this effect ie the wind from behind pushing the vehicle plus the thrust from the vehicle via traversing its wheels across the surface to spin the blades, you get the "source" in total.

Well here we are two members putting their understanding down after watching the same video and not coming to a mutual agreement.

We are lost.

JB I see your understanding that the vehicle's forward momentum is a source to rotate the prop' thus giving thrust.

SX Also the wind blowing with the vehicle creates pressure and from the front creates increased prop' spin.

If we treat the prop' as sails then the more area captured could increase the air velocity by funnelling and redirecting it.
This would mean the output air flow would be greater than the input. That would cancel out except the prop's create a low pressure
on their leading edge and high pressure on there trailing edge.

So how do we go from this to capturing, funnelling and redirecting gravity in the prop' device we call Besslers Wheel?

[johannesbender]

Nevermind ,must have had a brain fart moment , I have something similar in theory I gave to Fletcher a time ago that proposes the use of non conservative force and such but its not fully thought out.

[agor95]

Nevermind ,must have had a brain fart moment , I have something similar in theory I gave to Fletcher a time ago that proposes the use of non conservative force and such but its not fully thought out.

Sometimes our subconscious get a word into those moments,

As a result I imagined the prop' blades changing angle depending on the air flow.
So the gusts can be used when present from the front or back.

Regards

[Fletcher]

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wind-powered-car-upwind/

Directly into wind at ground speed twice the wind speed.

[Fletcher]

https://soaneemrana.com/onewebmedia/MEC ... ERMODE.pdf

A C KERMODE

Chapter 3

Aerofoils – Subsonic Speeds

....................

Pressure distribution

Figure 3.8 shows the pressure distribution, obtained in this manner, over an aerofoil
at an angle of attack of 4°.

Two points are particularly noticeable, namely –

1. The decrease in pressure on the upper surface is greater than the increase
on the lower surface.

Image : MECHANICS OF FLIGHT
Direction of airflow
Line of zero lift

2. The pressure is not evenly distributed,

... both the decreased pressure on the upper surface and the increased pressure on the lower surface being most marked over the front portion of the aerofoil.

Both these discoveries are of extreme importance.

The first shows that, although both surfaces contribute, it is the upper surface, by means of its decreased pressure, which provides the greater part of the lift; at some angles as much as four-fifths.

Plain language ..

An aerofoil at 4 degrees Angle of Attack (AoA) at a certain velocity relative to the wind will generate a Lift Force, and a Drag Force.

The Lift Force is far far greater than the Drag Force (both are vectored into a resultant vector representing both Lift and Drag).

This resolved slightly backward angling vector shows the Lift component of the lifting force ..

The Bernoulli Low Pressure zone above the wing contributes 4/5ths of that force i.e. the wing is sucked upwards into the low pressure zone created.

The other 1/5th of the Lift Force comes from the direct impact of air molecules colliding with the wing underside at an angle i.e. Momentum transfer of air mass to the wing section.

The faster the aerofoil is traveling the greater proportionally is the low pressure + momentum transfer Lift Force compared to the Drag Force dissipating energy.

Force x displacement = energy.

Therefore Lift energy is far far greater than Drag energy lost.

And why it is possible for an into wind cart to make a ground speed 2 times the head-on wind speed. [it is sucked forward (or pushed from behind) into the lower pressure zone it continually creates forward of itself]

Even if periodic gusts were involved the cart maintains it's momentum / KE and proportional speed advantage.

IMO.

[agor95]

Thanks for the repost of your reference material.

I note; 1 cubic metre of air weighs 1.226 kg and water is one metric tonne.

Regards

[agor95]

Thanks for the repost of your reference material.

I note; 1 cubic metre of air weighs 1.226 kg and water is one metric tonne.

p.s. Imagine the lift force of the moving blade begin used to turn the blade thus increasing the lift. [brain farts]

Regards

[Fletcher]

Yes - water is about 800 times the density of air at ground level, with a similar viscosity relationship.

That's why I prefer swimming thru air than water - less tiring lol.

[agor95]

Yes - water is about 800 times the density of air at ground level, with a similar viscosity relationship.

That's why I prefer swimming thru air than water - less tiring lol.

You can go in a powered air flow and swim in air without loosing height; but your breakfast.

Regards