Patterned ball tracks
Moderator: scott
Patterned ball tracks
Have any of you guys messed around with ball tracks? I'm pretending like I have steel ball-bearings following paths in a wheel and it's been a bit of an eye-opener. If you take mirror images of asymmetrical closed-circuit ball track paths and plot them around a wheel - you start getting some pretty weird weight paths. It's nice seeing some asymmetry start to come out of this approach. No solution yet, but you might want to mess around with this approach. It's pretty neat to be able to create looped paths throughout one rotation. It's also easy to create one-way latches where a ball can roll through but not come back the way it rolled through.
ball tracks
Can you give some context?
Is it a software product or a physical toy. A mental exercise or a path the ball is following?
Just note a ball path alters it's effective weight not it's mass.
Regards
Is it a software product or a physical toy. A mental exercise or a path the ball is following?
Just note a ball path alters it's effective weight not it's mass.
Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
Re: Patterned ball tracks
It's easy to experiment with via drawings. I'm not sure anything will come of it, but just for fun - imagine you have a clock face in front of you. Remove all the numbers and draw a figure 8 at the 12 o'clock position. If you were to rotate the clock face until the 8 got to 3 o'clock, it would be laying on it's side. Do it again at 6 and at 9.
Imagining that the figure 8 is a track for a metal ball, if you rotate the entire clock face, you will see the ball never completes the entire figure 8 - it rocks back and forth from one end of the 8 to the other through the rotation.
Now try a figure 8 at noon, but stand all the figure 8s up at 3, 6 and 9. As you rotate it, all the balls go to the bottom of the 8. As you rotate the wheel, all at once they all slide over. But now try laying the figure 8 on it's side at noon and at 6 but stand them up at 3 and 9 - rotate the face and imagine where all the balls would be. You get parts of the rotation where 2 of the balls are in balance, but the other 2 travel from left to right. By playing with the angles of the figure 8 (or any other pattern) you can make the balls roll this way and that way.
Imagine if you put the ball tracks in a compartment that can rotate so now your figure 8 can rotate in place. Now pin it off-center. Using dowels pinned to the wheels face, you can stop the rotation of figure 8 mechanism until a certain point and have the entire thing rapidly flip over.
I only use a figure 8 as an easily identifiable figure. You can experiment with rectangles, squares, and whatever other shapes a rolling ball (or cylinder) could follow.
What I'm curious about is that if this could be coupled with something like MT21 so that flopping pendulums could be used at certain points in the wheel's rotation so that the overall configuration could be such that it leaves one side of the wheel permanently heavier than the other.
Imagining that the figure 8 is a track for a metal ball, if you rotate the entire clock face, you will see the ball never completes the entire figure 8 - it rocks back and forth from one end of the 8 to the other through the rotation.
Now try a figure 8 at noon, but stand all the figure 8s up at 3, 6 and 9. As you rotate it, all the balls go to the bottom of the 8. As you rotate the wheel, all at once they all slide over. But now try laying the figure 8 on it's side at noon and at 6 but stand them up at 3 and 9 - rotate the face and imagine where all the balls would be. You get parts of the rotation where 2 of the balls are in balance, but the other 2 travel from left to right. By playing with the angles of the figure 8 (or any other pattern) you can make the balls roll this way and that way.
Imagine if you put the ball tracks in a compartment that can rotate so now your figure 8 can rotate in place. Now pin it off-center. Using dowels pinned to the wheels face, you can stop the rotation of figure 8 mechanism until a certain point and have the entire thing rapidly flip over.
I only use a figure 8 as an easily identifiable figure. You can experiment with rectangles, squares, and whatever other shapes a rolling ball (or cylinder) could follow.
What I'm curious about is that if this could be coupled with something like MT21 so that flopping pendulums could be used at certain points in the wheel's rotation so that the overall configuration could be such that it leaves one side of the wheel permanently heavier than the other.
Last edited by JUBAT on Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Patterned ball tracks
Thanks for answering the question.
Regards
Regards
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
Re: Patterned ball tracks
You're welcome.
Researching the father of knot theory to see if there is any advantage to be gained, imagine if these knots were ball tracks:
http://indexgrafik.fr/peter-guthrie-tai ... es-noeuds/
I like what the balls would do on a trefoil or a 4-lobed version of it such as number VII from the posted link.
The balls would kind of turn in on themselves as they make path their around the wheel. They certainly "trade places." It's always bottom-heavy though so one has to see if there is any advantage with it - instead of one big ball track plastered over the entire wheel, make smaller versions of the same ball track patterns at 12, 3, 6, and 9 and at the same time one larger one in the middle of all 4. The balls start taking some very interesting patterns which to me mimic orbits around planets and so forth.
Perhaps one of these ball tracks coupled with another of the MTs is the solution. It's a lot to try and take in and keep track of mentally which I think is a good thing.
One thing I've discovered is possible is that you can have multiple looped ball tracks that eventually merge so on the upside of the wheel, you could have 2 balls - one in each looped ball track and have them nearer the center of the wheel, but as they go over the top, the design of the ball track spits them out into one common loop out nearer the edge of the wheel. Using directional latches you can split them once again depending on where you want them to go in the wheel. You can also have them momentarily go to the edge and quickly scoot across the wheel to the other side and split up. I'm not sure if this is the solution, but I've read a lot of posts on this site and it seems most everyone has shied away from the early MTs. I'm just investigating to see if there is anything down that warren.
Things to keep in mind is that the loops generally must all turn the same direction if you want the balls to not end up rocking back and forth in a track. You can't use a figure 8, but you can fold the track and cause a loop within a loop which is a modified figure 8. It's worth experimenting with I think because you can layer ball tracks - not all the balls in a circuit have to all follow the same path. Some on the front layer can take their prescribed path while ones on other layers can do their own custom path. Layer up enough ball tracks and you might just be able to keep the weight over on one side of the wheel. The path the weights take resembles a wheel within a wheel but one where the weight's path can distort and be tweaked and the final ratio will still be 1:1 between the ball's rotation through the wheel and the overall wheel's rotation. Normally when you have a wheel within a wheel, the smaller inside wheel spins faster than the outside wheel just due to the turning ratios. Now you have the ability to have the balls take a generally circular path, but with some tweaks and mods at a 1:1 ratio you wouldn't normally be able to accomplish.
With Bessler using 8 cylinders in his wheel, we don't know if he had more weights in there or not, but assuming these were the weights that were doing the work, then going to the trouble of fabricating cylinders in the 1700s - there must have been a darn good reason for them - cylindrical weights can roll. They can also roll and thump at the 4 o'clock position. In effect, the entire wheel and the tracks the weights roll in become one giant lever that constantly spins. Also, the narrow opening in Bessler's wheel could have simply led to one or 2 little repositories he placed his weights in and then by spinning the wheel they could have automatically fed into the far flung parts of the wheel he wanted them to go to. Think of it as like one big marble machine.
I have no idea how Bessler's Wheel worked so I'm shooting in the dark.
Researching the father of knot theory to see if there is any advantage to be gained, imagine if these knots were ball tracks:
http://indexgrafik.fr/peter-guthrie-tai ... es-noeuds/
I like what the balls would do on a trefoil or a 4-lobed version of it such as number VII from the posted link.
The balls would kind of turn in on themselves as they make path their around the wheel. They certainly "trade places." It's always bottom-heavy though so one has to see if there is any advantage with it - instead of one big ball track plastered over the entire wheel, make smaller versions of the same ball track patterns at 12, 3, 6, and 9 and at the same time one larger one in the middle of all 4. The balls start taking some very interesting patterns which to me mimic orbits around planets and so forth.
Perhaps one of these ball tracks coupled with another of the MTs is the solution. It's a lot to try and take in and keep track of mentally which I think is a good thing.
One thing I've discovered is possible is that you can have multiple looped ball tracks that eventually merge so on the upside of the wheel, you could have 2 balls - one in each looped ball track and have them nearer the center of the wheel, but as they go over the top, the design of the ball track spits them out into one common loop out nearer the edge of the wheel. Using directional latches you can split them once again depending on where you want them to go in the wheel. You can also have them momentarily go to the edge and quickly scoot across the wheel to the other side and split up. I'm not sure if this is the solution, but I've read a lot of posts on this site and it seems most everyone has shied away from the early MTs. I'm just investigating to see if there is anything down that warren.
Things to keep in mind is that the loops generally must all turn the same direction if you want the balls to not end up rocking back and forth in a track. You can't use a figure 8, but you can fold the track and cause a loop within a loop which is a modified figure 8. It's worth experimenting with I think because you can layer ball tracks - not all the balls in a circuit have to all follow the same path. Some on the front layer can take their prescribed path while ones on other layers can do their own custom path. Layer up enough ball tracks and you might just be able to keep the weight over on one side of the wheel. The path the weights take resembles a wheel within a wheel but one where the weight's path can distort and be tweaked and the final ratio will still be 1:1 between the ball's rotation through the wheel and the overall wheel's rotation. Normally when you have a wheel within a wheel, the smaller inside wheel spins faster than the outside wheel just due to the turning ratios. Now you have the ability to have the balls take a generally circular path, but with some tweaks and mods at a 1:1 ratio you wouldn't normally be able to accomplish.
With Bessler using 8 cylinders in his wheel, we don't know if he had more weights in there or not, but assuming these were the weights that were doing the work, then going to the trouble of fabricating cylinders in the 1700s - there must have been a darn good reason for them - cylindrical weights can roll. They can also roll and thump at the 4 o'clock position. In effect, the entire wheel and the tracks the weights roll in become one giant lever that constantly spins. Also, the narrow opening in Bessler's wheel could have simply led to one or 2 little repositories he placed his weights in and then by spinning the wheel they could have automatically fed into the far flung parts of the wheel he wanted them to go to. Think of it as like one big marble machine.
I have no idea how Bessler's Wheel worked so I'm shooting in the dark.
Last edited by JUBAT on Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:37 pm, edited 10 times in total.
Re: Patterned ball tracks
A ball track dislpays nothing more usable than any other moving weight mechanism.
For a BW to work, we need to lift weight. Bessler states this as the way he makes his wheel turn. Lift it lighter than it drops, or drop it heavier than it really is. PE=mgh, so that doesn't give us a path forward.
A ball track, no matter what path you make it, the ball will never rise to a higher level it is dropped from. I don't remember seeing a ball track on a balanced wheel on youtube...
For a BW to work, we need to lift weight. Bessler states this as the way he makes his wheel turn. Lift it lighter than it drops, or drop it heavier than it really is. PE=mgh, so that doesn't give us a path forward.
A ball track, no matter what path you make it, the ball will never rise to a higher level it is dropped from. I don't remember seeing a ball track on a balanced wheel on youtube...
Re: Patterned ball tracks
You're probably correct. I've just been thinking of variations of the ball track that others may have overlooked. I'm thinking of where the balls aren't confined into their own little compartment, but are cross connected so that the balls can cross from one side of the wheel to the other, but you're probably right that even so, you can't get a net gain from all the ball movement to sustain rotation.
Moving Path
Hello JUBAT
Considering possible paths is a good exercise for your own development.
It is one thing too look at the paths. The next level is perceiving the dynamics in a different way.
Just imaging a wheel having a initial stable rotation rate. [controlled]
Then a ball on a track on the disc were the ball moves with a stable initial speed.
Can a path be found that increases the ball's speed and thus causing the downward pressure to be more on one side of the wheel than the other?
Good Luck
Considering possible paths is a good exercise for your own development.
It is one thing too look at the paths. The next level is perceiving the dynamics in a different way.
Just imaging a wheel having a initial stable rotation rate. [controlled]
Then a ball on a track on the disc were the ball moves with a stable initial speed.
Can a path be found that increases the ball's speed and thus causing the downward pressure to be more on one side of the wheel than the other?
Good Luck
Last edited by agor95 on Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
Re: Patterned ball tracks
Thanks agor.
What I was envisioning was a repeated pattern of trefoils around the perimeter of a wheel, each one having one or maybe 2 balls in it.
If you go here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41566-019-0450-2 and click on figures on the right, you can see some neat images.
I'm on a knot theory kick at the moment and seeing if anything can be gleaned from intricate ball tracks. These aren't just circles or half moons - we're talking more complicated paths. Still probably no net gain, but it makes the weights move in interesting ways.
What I was envisioning was a repeated pattern of trefoils around the perimeter of a wheel, each one having one or maybe 2 balls in it.
If you go here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41566-019-0450-2 and click on figures on the right, you can see some neat images.
I'm on a knot theory kick at the moment and seeing if anything can be gleaned from intricate ball tracks. These aren't just circles or half moons - we're talking more complicated paths. Still probably no net gain, but it makes the weights move in interesting ways.
knot theory
One should look for inspiration were others may not have looked.
Make a monkey's fist and throw out ideas.
I for one do not look in sites that require a login. But that is me.
Regards
Make a monkey's fist and throw out ideas.
I for one do not look in sites that require a login. But that is me.
Regards
Last edited by agor95 on Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
Re: Patterned ball tracks
When I use chrome from a pc it gave me a place to view pictures. Maybe I can screenshot it when I get home.
Last edited by JUBAT on Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Patterned ball tracks
I went to the link and viewed it in MS Edge and Chrome and both of those show the link on the side. When using my phone, the side bar link did not show up - even in Desktop mode.
Once viewed with a PC, you'll see the pictures I was referring to.
Once viewed with a PC, you'll see the pictures I was referring to.
Re: Patterned ball tracks
Monochromatic is what the old CRTs used. Just another way of saying grey scale.
You didn't say why a torus or a knot matters. Is the field it's in twisting? If not (no pun intended),
then why become a pretzel?
p.s., I did read the link.
You didn't say why a torus or a knot matters. Is the field it's in twisting? If not (no pun intended),
then why become a pretzel?
p.s., I did read the link.
Last edited by Da Ewe on Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Patterned ball tracks
My message was for agor95.