Swinging .. or .. Momentum .. you be the judge !

[Fletcher]

A post by Ovyyus yesterday reminded me that a couple of months ago I was going to start a topic on the above subject which keeps rearing its head ..

I'll start out today and update more tomorrow etc, as time permits ..

I was going to go into the context and detail but decided that member Stewart has said it all and probably better than me ..

** So I used the forum 'advanced search' function (top right of screen) and wrote in the 'keyword' field "swinging" - in 'author' I wrote "Stewart".

I will present most of what he wrote on the subject over the next few days - however it won't be the whole post (underlining, bolding, and colour are probably mine) - if you want greater context then also search "swinging and Stewart" for yourself ..

I'll make a start .. more to follow in due course ..

Hi Ovaron

The clues you've quoted are not even direct quotes, but more the site author's paraphrased interpretations. I've spent years pointing out inaccuracies in quotes and translations on this site, and have addressed all the issues you have raised at one point or another.

Weights acted in pairs.
You are correct that the "pairs" clue has come from the line in AP that says "zwei und zwei". In English that translates as 'two and two', 'by twos', 'in twos', 'in pairs'. So although not a word-for-word translation, 'pairs' could be considered a valid interpretation, however as you say, "acted in pairs" is not a direct Bessler quote.

Weights gained force from their own swinging.
That is again not a direct quote of Bessler, and your interpretation is the correct one as I've pointed out before: Bessler isn't talking here of an oscillation.

Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.
I also can't remember the source of that one, although again it's probably not a direct quote but paraphrased.

Weights applied force at right angles to the axis.
Again, not a direct quote. I assume it's an interpretation of a part of the description of the wheel in DT.

Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
Again, not a direct quote. The only thing I can think of as to where that might have come from is that Wolff thought he heard the sound of a spring when Bessler removed/replaced weights in the wheel during translocation.

The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter.
Again, not a direct quote, but paraphrasing descriptions of the wheel from GB, AP or DT.
There are various bits of information that would allow us to believe the wheel increased in power with an increase in diameter (it makes sense as well). The quote given about being able to make a smaller diameter wheel more powerful than a bigger diameter wheel could refer to the ability to increase the power by adding multiple mechanisms/weights along the axle, i.e. increasing the thickness rather than diameter. For Bessler's demonstration purposes, the thinnest most powerful wheel was desirable to rule out there being a man/animal inside for example.

All the best
Stewart

[Fletcher]

I'd like to discuss that part of DT, and indeed the translation you've quoted needs some explanation, something I'd promised long ago but hadn't managed to do. I don't like the frequent misquoting of parts of it out of context with the rest of the sentence, particularly "gain force from their own swinging". I'll try and post about it soon. Other quotes such as "warped boards" just won't seem to go away, no matter how many times I point out the error. Wolff said nothing about warped boards, instead he said he saw small boards/beams at right-angles to the tangent of the wheel being hit by weights, although he admitted that he could only perceive this through a crack in the outer covering and from a distance.

[Fletcher]

Dave wrote:
gain "overbalance" from swinging, if that makes you happy so be it.

What are you talking about? Now you're injecting the word "overbalance" into a completely different sentence where the word used by Bessler is 'force'! That's probably one of the most quoted parts of Bessler's writing - people seem to argue over the word swinging or momentum, but what annoys me more is that the word "gain" isn't even in the original sentence.

[WaltzCee]

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Kaine recently posted this

DeepL Translate of the transcribed original, page (87), JCs AP page 235
The wheel's own power from within
Must begin without all momentum
To make united only the run,
And that one may not pull it up,
And that it has the control,
As I say in the first part, No.XL11I
And as my enemy will have this,
It should certainly be a mob;
Must now, even according to the enemy's writing
My work remains the right mob,
And indeed also a per se
And perpetual motion.
And on this wide earth
No better will be invented.
For without my principle
There is no mobile perpetuum. NB.
He who seeks otherwise is deceived,
For my work is not raised;
It runs with the prepondium
At the same time, everything also runs around

ETA
I'm going to call it The Walter Principle :)
Good discussion, Fletcher.

[Fletcher]

We've talked about this issue with the word 'swinging' a number of times, and my own view is that whilst the German noun 'Schwung' could mean 'swinging', it is more likely to mean impulse/momentum in the context of the sentence. This is also backed up by the Latin version of the text. When I hear the word 'swinging' it makes me think of something oscillating, whereas the word 'Schwung' would probably more commonly be translated as 'swing', and with the word 'swing' you don't necessarily have an oscillation. For example you swing a golf club. Also in German the word is used in the same way we might use it in the following context: the party is in full swing. In German a flywheel is referred to as a 'Schwungrad', so it's possible to get a feel for the use of the word to mean momentum. It's difficult for me to explain the word further - just have a look at the meanings and uses of the word in the following online dictionary: http://www.dict.cc/?s=schwung

I'm currently working on a post about chapter XXIX of part II of AP as requested by Steve who wanted to see if I could shed light on the part where Bessler talks of having some machines without weights (sorry for the delay Steve, but you'll see why it's taking me a while...). In order to give a complete overview of circumstances surrounding the writing of that chapter I've gone back to Wagner's tract which prompted Bessler to write the chapter, and then back to GB which prompted Wagner to write what he did. I'll post my findings and analysis as soon as I can. One interesting thing I got from Wagner's tract was his use of the word 'Schwung', which in the context he uses it is indisputably intended to mean momentum, as he is referring to the use of weights arranged around the circumference of the wheel like a flywheel.

Anyway, back to the DT text in question.... the following are parts of my own unfinished translations of the text in DT that talks about the interior of the wheel. First the German....

"The inner structure of this tympanum or wheel is of such a nature, after which a number of weights arranged according to 'a priori' (that is, scientifically demonstrable) laws of mechanical perpetual motion, continuously drive the wheel after/from [a] single received rotation, or after/from [a] single impressed force of the swing/impetus/momentum, and its revolution must continue so long as that is to say the whole structure maintains itself, without any further assistance and help [from] external motive forces which would require restitution: ..."

and the Latin....

"[The] interior structure [of the] tympanum or wheel is so constructed, in order that weights, arranged according to 'a priori' or scientifically demonstrable laws of mechanical perpetual motion, may drive the wheel without rest [from a] single received impulse & revolution, and may cause perpetual motion, as long as of course [the] structure itself [does] not lose its position and order/arrangement; and without any further help & without another added source of motion which may need to be restored. ..."

I hope this helps a bit - my full translation of this part of DT will hopefully be available in my forum soon.

Stewart

Translations copyright © Stewart Hughes

[JUBAT]

If the difference is between a swing or swinging - swinging is like when a child is oscillating back and forth. However, what if the child goes one way, pauses for a set amount of degrees of rotation, then goes the other way. They wouldn't be swinging rather - they would "swing" at set intervals. Is this one way of looking at it?

What I envision then in this case is 2 pendulums attached to the circumference of the wheel 90 degrees apart to each other. On the ascending side the lead pendulum hangs at noon with the weight in the middle. It's mate, trailing at 9:00 falls from the outside to the middle and pushes the lead pendulum out via some kind of connection. Evenly spaced across the wheel is another set. The lead pendulum stays pinned to the outside of the wheel while the trailing pendulum stays in the center as it goes down the descending side. As the wheel progresses around, eventually the lead pendulum falls back into the middle, and throws the trailing pendulum back against the side of the wheel.

If you draw this out, you soon find out as the weights shift, the wheel is almost always in balance with the only force on the wheel being as the weights move from out to in and in to out. At least my diagram shows it that way.

I could use another piece of kinetic art in the old burn pile LOL!

[WaltzCee]

Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
Again, not a direct quote. The only thing I can think of as to where that might have come from is that Wolff thought he heard the sound of a spring when Bessler removed/replaced weights in the wheel during translocation.

I think springs are necessary for creating a synthetic gravity. I haven't given the idea too much thought.

[ovyyus]

Great idea, Fletcher. Links to the topics would be nice.

[WaltzCee]

I will present most of what he wrote on the subject over the next few days - however it won't be the whole post (underlining, bolding, and colour are probably mine) - if you want greater context then also search "swinging and Stewart" for yourself ..

Don't be lazy.

ETA

(_x_)

ETA2
From Rocky's thread
https://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopi ... up#p100194


1. “Is there such a thing in nature as perpetual motion, or a perpetuum mobile? And whether it may be possible for human hands to introduce into material bodies, in themselves lifeless, a permanent innate motive force, a constant interchange of rise and fall, of excess and deficient weight, resulting, as it were, in a living machine. Imagine how a heavy material body, in defiance of its innate natural tendency to gravitate towards the center of the earth, could be induced to rise once more.� GB 52

Sounds like resurrection, Sam.

[ovyyus]

I'm not the one in need.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I always felt that the most important quote is: "---------the weights gravitate to the center then climb back up-----------"
How can that happen or how can that be? What is he describing? I wonder------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

Sam, not sure if you can take that as the most important. Taken in context, Bessler says Wagner credited him with the concept, but he said no such thing. The two possibilities of the context of this paragraph:

-Wagner says I did it like this, I never told him, but he is wrong.

-Wagner says I did it like this, I never told him but he is correct.

Bessler considers himself a wordsmith and writes his answers to deceive anyone who reads them, but without saying either way so that if he sold his wheel, he could explain why he didn't lie.

This text seems to me to directly contradicts him saying the weights rise in a flash. The only text I have found that I don't think can be taken out of context is when he says his weights are lifted (presumably into OB).

[WaltzCee]

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If one wants to investigate codes & clues
.

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this was written by one of the world's leading Bessler authorities.

Are we allowed to ask if the clues have any merit, why haven't the experts produced an answer?

What the duck, I'm axing.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Tarsier,
Maybe you are right, maybe it's not important. Or do you mean, he never said that? One thing is for sure; the interpretations are all over the map----------------------Sam

[Trev]

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If one wants to investigate codes & clues
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this was written by one of the world's leading Bessler authorities.

Are we allowed to ask if the clues have any merit, why haven't the experts produced an answer?

What the duck, I'm axing.

To my knowledge that book has not even been published yet. Oystein is a BW forum member but unfortunately he doesn't post often now.