MT 21 revisited

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Thx4,
votre idée est intéressante, la démonstration vidéo montre ce que chaque constructeur PM a pu constaté: l'extraction d'un poids sur la roue.
la solution recherchée et de pouvoir embarquer ce que nous faisons en tant qu'intervention extérieure à la roue.
le seul point " fixe" pour simuler votre expérimentation, est l'axe de la roue. si une roue a rochet avec dégagement peut faire ce que votre doigt fait alors vous aurez un PM, à vérifier!! bonne chance.
J.B

Hello Thx4,
your idea is interesting, the video demonstration shows what each PM manufacturer found: the removal of a weight on the wheel.
the solution sought and to be able to take on board what we are doing as an external intervention.
the only "fixed" point to simulate your experiment is the axis of the wheel. If a ratchet wheel with release can do what your finger does then you will have a PM, to check!! good luck.
J.B

[thx4]

Salut J.B, l’idée est intéressante mais la connexion pour l’instant reste impossible…
Je reviens vers décembre, nous verrons bien. Bon courage pour la suite.

Hi J.B, the idea is interesting but the connection for the moment remains impossible...
I'll be back around December, so we'll see. Good luck with the rest.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Thx4.
De retour de villégiature, en pièce jointe un essai de ce que je vous suggérais.
Ce n'est pas le top, mais à creuser!!
J.B

Hi Thx4.
Back from vacation, attached is an essay of what I suggested.
It’s not the best, but to dig!
J.B

[preoccupied]

If you delete the bottom two and top two weights in MT 21 it's very overbalanced. Then you can gear the weights by pulley so that the right side is as far away against the edge of the wheel as possible and the weights swing each other back and forth as I've drawn here.

[JUBAT]

I like your idea Jon. I wish Fletch was here to sim it. Going straight across like this is brilliant. It could become a square wheel at the snap of your fingers. Surely this is proof of a wheel being too small to contain the mechanism.

Only problem I see is that it appears to get bottom heavy right off the bat.

[preoccupied]

Thank JUBAT, It's bottom heavy but it shifts weights high on the descending side and low on the ascending side with a unique ease to which it shifts that I can only acclaim to Bessler probably having had this as one of his overbalanced wheels. I wonder if all of the MT's are this easy to solve if you are creative enough. I obviously think this is an obvious runner. It might not be the torque heavy wheel he made in the castles but it is one of a number of successful designs he might have had. Don't you think? Who else thinks this is a cool way to look at MT 21?

[JUBAT]

Certainly unique in how you've handled the connecting points. Most of the time people are working across only the largest diameter of the wheel. Having it done parallel all the way from the top to bottom then converts it to a topsy turvy flip flop kind of a thing. The Jacob's ladder depicted on the toys page kind of hints at the mechanism I think. It's flips over, then the weight shifts, and it flips again ad naseum.

[JUBAT]

Another thought about MT21. Has anyone ever tried MT21 with an offset hub?

I'm imagining the superior over-balance on a clockwise rotation with the greater distance between rim and axle on the right. As this heavy part goes down and starts coming back up, it goes into balance maybe? therefore little to no counter-torque. As it goes on around and the weights keep swinging out, it gradually goes back into imbalance again and cycle repeats. It's basically treating the entire wheel as a pendulum which has a shifting counterweight to counter the offset hub. 2 wrongs make a right so that during half a rotation it's in balance and the other half is severely over balanced.

Have a think about it. It kind of makes me think of the toys page with the upper toy being off balance like an offset wheel hub and then the lower mechanism being the pendulums contained within...like a pendulum within a pendulum. It truly is a looped path of the weights and would act like a flip-flop.

What you say Jon?

[preoccupied]

I can't make an image based on your description right now so I don't understand. Are you suggesting causing the weight on the left to fall into the axle and the weight on the right to shoot off to the side? It's the natural descent of the lever on the left and right that would allow a quick shift of weights so the most it can shift is 90 degrees, I think.

[JUBAT]

Simple as I said it. Take MT21 and give it an off-center hub.

Voila!

Always off-balance. Just a bit more off-balance sometimes than others. That way it doesn't fight itself on the upswing as much.

It might need an adjustment for the weight stops and it's possible it will need a couple directional latches for the weights, but I think introducing the offset center creates the conditions needed to effect movement.

[preoccupied]

I positioned the drawing off center hub so that on the counter torque it's balanced and on the overbalanced side it's more overbalanced like you said. Then I arranged them such that if there was a cylinder with many wheels in it that it would be in constant overbalanced state. However there is no "big" difference between doing your "more overbalanced" position with an offset hub as to just take the original drawing and arrange it the same way in a cylinder of those. Star in blue is the overbalanced section so every section turn has an overbalanced section.

[JUBAT]

Here is what I'm thinking. First off we know the principle behind how to balance a heavy weight with a small weight.

Now if we just move the hub within MT21 we get this:

Clipboard01.jpg (56.77 KiB) Viewed 4749 times

Use your imagination because I can't get mspaint to draw diagonally.

Now let's say you have 8 weights (4 pair) and each mechanism is designed to purposefully be offset from the center of rotation so that when going down, it's imbalanced, but going up when it flips, it goes into balance. That way the next set of weights that are imbalanced will keep things moving. It's balanced on the up but imbalanced on the fall so that the wheel is off balance with about 1/4 of the weight hanging in thin air.

I'm not using anything from your drawing - only the thought of MT21 although maybe hooking the weights together your way with a chain or loop would work.

One would definitely have to get out the scale and test each weight pair for the proper balance - heavy on the down and light on the up.

I also must be forthright and say the MT21 diagram came from a screen grab on a youtube video and since I've scared myself a little bit with this diagram, I just want to protect the idea more than the graphic itself.

[preoccupied]

Oh, you are trying to treat the wheel as a pendulum. I have to be careful that people aren't spying on me because if I accidentally reveal a gear train that gets stronger with new gears it could allow someone to destroy a planet. I was toying using MT21 like a pendulum with that before drawing the pulleys in and deleting the top and bottom weights. It does naturally try to fall into place if you treat it like a pendulum. I'm not sure how offsetting the hub helps though. When the wheel swings up on the left the weights will fall onto their platforms on the way down which will make the right side overbalanced again.

[JUBAT]

The wheel isn't totally the correct layout John. You'd have to set up the device like a sandwich - stacked mechanisms and it wouldn't be symmetrical. The weight pairs (all 4 of them) would have to exist within one half of the wheel because at the 180 degree mark, the weight pair that was imbalanced before would be coming up in line and you can't double the weight pairs up. You'd have to break the wheel up into 8 slices (4 lines), and have the 4 mechanism pairs laid out on those lines. The mechanism I suspect isn't a circle at all. It's just these cross bars with the offset pendulum mechanisms on it evenly spaced out. On and on they go into balance and out of the balance. If you think in terms of a wheel, it messes with your thinking and tends to make you arrange the weights wrong - at least it does me. Just think of a crossbar with the weight pairs on it and a stop block placed appropriately on each bar so when the weight falls, it prevents the one hanging in the air from going too far since it's cross-linked to the other pendulum. I can see that one would have to balance the weights to counter the imbalance caused by the stop blocks. It's got to be dead on balanced on the upswing. After that, it can go as imbalanced as it wants. Being out an ounce or 2 shouldn't matter.

[thx4]

639 messages depuis février 2023, cela s’appelle une diarrhée de mots, il faudrait faire comme les ours, mettre un bouchon à l’approche de l’hiver. Perso, j’ai 464 messages en 13 ans 😊
C’était pour l’humour…
Pour le MT 21, je ne pense pas, j’affirme que vous n’avez rien compris, ce qui ne m’étonne pas, mais confirme votre inaptitude au raisonnement tout court. L’idéal serait d’aller chier ailleurs que sur mon post.

639 messages since February 2023, that's called a diarrhea of words, we should do like the bears, put a cap on the approach of winter. Personally, I have 464 messages in 13 years 😊
That was for humor...
As for MT 21, I don't think so, I assert that you've understood nothing, which doesn't surprise me, but confirms your ineptitude for reasoning at all. Ideally, you should take a shit somewhere other than my post.