Posted by Nick Hall (195.74.122.243) on April 30, 2003 at 07:37:57:
In Reply to: Re: I'd like your opinions, regular posters posted by Darren on April 29, 2003 at 21:17:26:
Darren wrote in reply to my post:
Nick : -- There is real ambiguity in the accuracy of many of the English translations - his German was "quirky" to say the least.
Darren: Any ambiguity in the translations most likely comes from the translators trying to figure out *any* 17th/18th century German writer, not just Bessler. I don't know that's really Bessler's fault.
Nick: I wasn't criticising Bessler! I was merely pointing out that reasons other than technical accuracy shaped his choice of words, spellings and endings (as in fact John Collins has just pointed out - see post above). He lived during the "age of letters) when the way one said things was as important as WHAT you said - hence his use of rhyming couplets.
Darren: Question; do you read German? Have you read Bessler's original writings as he penned them? How do you know his German was quirky?
Nick: I don't know german - but I sent a key bit of the Apologia in German to a German friend who came back with several variants for key words. His opinion was "quirky" - not mine.
Darren: : -- He did deliberately try to mislead people. What do you base that statement on?
Nick: Bessler's own comments (as reported in John's book)
Perhaps "mislead" was too strong - let's say he used 'metaphorical allusion' rather than downright lies.
Darren: From what I've read he supported every single claim he made, attended every demonstration he advertised (except for that Easter Leipzig Fair where he got sick), passed every test parameter provided by scientific individuals and the investigative groups, and never took money from anyone except for Karl who saw the workings of the wheel and was convinced it was genuine. Other than the fact that there isn't a working Bessler wheel today, what did he promise that he never delivered? Where did he try to mislead people?
Nick: Relax - I`m a believer! I didn't mean that he tried to con them about the fact of a working wheel - but that he was very "careful" not to give away the simple clue which lay behind the secret.
Nick: -- His 'clues' have more the status IMHO of "coded prior art
Darren: Not sure that's a bad thing. It actually sounds quite reasonable to me. One little sidenote though... take one look at my design and then read through Apologia Poetica and you'll quickly get a big grin on your face. His clues were not just vague coded clues that could fit various devices... like a horoscope conveniently fits many people... the clues fit his (and my) design very closely...
Nick: I`m sure - that is a common experience with "eureka" moments in wheel design. I have done this hundreds of times myself - suddenly thought "That's it!" then gone through the "clues" to see if the proposed device "fits" what Bessler said - Yes! Only problem - it doesn't work... :)
Certitude is a strange feeling - without Newtonian mechanics, I`m sure it could lead people half crazy building hundreds of "must work" models (BTW Bessler himself was in the same state for several years before his final triumph...)
Darren: It's weird when you suddenly understand someone's apparently insane rantings :-) Yes, they were coded, but no they weren't insane,
Nick: I would _never_ say his writings were insane - or rants come to that.
Darren: they are just visual pictures from nature that are similar to the different mechanical configurations within the wheel.
Nick: Agreed.
Darren: There is an anvil in the wheel, there are planets of different sizes, there are ghosts poking through heyholes, and the dog does indeed creep out of his kennel just as far as his chain will stretch... :-)
Nick: Yes, I`m sure your proposed design 'fits the clues' closely.... :)
Darren: Which reminds me... if someone invents something totally novel and totally useful in 1727, but then it's lost for alomst 300 years... can you then build one and patent it in the year 2003 or will someone cry "prior art?" Probably a silly question... just curious.
Nick: My research on this indicates it is the sort of question that will force you to pay a patent law