Some thoughts and info


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Posted by Vlad (203.213.55.116) on May 04, 2003 at 21:28:05:

Hi again to all, and to Scott Ellis, thank you for your kind welcome to the forum. Shortened my name to what eveyone calls me :)

Also, thanks for all the positive comments and welcomes, (with the exception of this David - Rick character) . I am sorry this forum seems to be tainted by this one character, and I shall not be responding to this person or commenting on any of their posts, as it serves no purpose to get caught up in a slanging match, it wastes time and no one wins, and it only serves to divert our attention away from what we are here for. There can be no useful discussion with such a person. I support any action Scott wishes to take, such as ban if possible. I also think that this type of person needs feedback or a response to continue their game, so simply ignoring them is the best immediate action. Don't even read the post when you see that IP address at the top, as it may contain such words as to anger you into responding. They post, no response, they post, no response, they post, no response etc etc , eventually, they will get bored of it ..... Surely we all have better things to think about and discuss. Just keep an eye out for the IP address listed at the top of a post (199.60.107.1), and it's immediately obvious who it is. As for it being someone else on the same IP, for example on a public computer, the odds of that happening must surely be higher than discovering PM ;)

Anyway, back to what I was going to say I will take some pictures of the wheel I have and send to Scott, so you can all see. I think it is quite interesting, however, I guess I am biased.

Secretly I think we all wish to be the one who discovers the secret, and who can blame someone for thinking that way? I think that re-trying the same ideas, that have been proven not to work, as Viper said, is probably a waste of time, as long as the ACTUAL DESIGN or at least the way of acting is the same, and the wheel has been competently made. Having said that, I think it's a bit of a problem though, to say not to re-try the same ideas, as just because a certain principle or idea didn't work in one configuration, doesn't necessarily mean it would not work in a different configuration? It all depends on how the machine is configured, where the forces are acting etc, as usually there are many different ways of designing a wheel by trying to utilize a certain idea or force.

I hope to be able to give the forum some ideas of things I have tried, and not had success with. Sometimes, I guess we all hit a wall, and need something new to consider. I think my main problem is I get stuck on a certain track, or stuck in a certain way of looking at something after attempting it a number of different ways, and it is hard to step back and try at look at it in a new light, or from a different angle. When this happens, (usually after a fair period of time), I then leave it, and find something different or a different force or system to concentrate on, and, as happens, never go back to what I couldn't solve to try to look at it again in a fresh frame of mind. So, all my stalled ideas, maybe someone can succeed where I have failed. At least maybe they will give you something to think about or to consider in your own design? And if it so happens that you use some part or any of my ideas and/or designs and succeed, how about doing the right thing and sharing the fame and fortune with me :)

Good physics site:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/amom.html

It may be of interest to visit this physics site above, as they have a very good basic explanation of forces, how they act, and some good rotation and weight examples (I like it for the quick formula calculations built in to some of the web pages, as it saves some tedious number crunching time). For anyone unfamiliar with these concepts, it gives good explanations and examples of many things. I think there would be nothing worse than having what you think is a good design which looks like it could work, going to the trouble and time I'm not sure is obvious to many people, is Precession. A small QuickTime movie on the physics site about it can be found here
( http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rotv2.html#rvec6 ). It shows how the phenomenon of precession can support the weight of a bike wheel being suspended by one side of the axle only, with all the weight of the bike wheel then acting at the point of that side of the axle (where it is being suspended), RATHER than acting through the center of gravity of the wheel and falling (Also note the bike wheel MUST be spinning for this to occur). The center of the weight of the bike wheel of course is still through the center of the wheel downwards, but it now ACTS at a different point (note that in the movie, it's supported by what looks like a solid steel pole, but the pole has a bearing at the point of the joint to the axle of the bike wheel and can let the wheel fall should the precession stop). See the associated text on the site for an explanation of why this occurs, but it doesn't give a full and clear explanation of where the angular momentum (or the turning force) for the precession (the orbit spin of the wheel around the horizontal axis) comes from. It can't appear from nowhere due to conservation of angular momentum. The angular momentum for the precession movement (the orbital spin) comes from the slight fall of the bike wheel (look for the angle the axle of the bike wheel is sitting at as it is spinning in the movie, it will be slightly tilted down on the unsupported side). That is, the angular momentum for the precession orbit comes from the slight weight fall (angular momentum) of the bike wheel, while the actual spin of the bike wheel itself does not change. Not sure if that sounds very clear or not :)

However, be quick to realize that conservation of angular momentum is maintained (that is, there has been no force added or removed from the system as a whole, disregarding friction etc), and any attempt to slow or stop the precession orbit will result in the bike wheel falling further down a proportional or total amount. Nevertheless, it may spur some idea or thought. It was something I was toying with at one stage, but could not come up with a solution as to how to utilize this weight shift principle to make a weight on a PM wheel act more towards to the center of the axle WITHOUT the other effects of the precession and angular momentum affecting the spin of a PM wheel. Note, and this to me is the most part of interest, that it is NOT necessary to actually physically move the weight to make this weight shift occur (as it was being raised, say on the lighter side of a PM wheel), rather, it needs to spin on it's OWN axis as the PM wheel would be spinning on it's own axis. BUT, and here's the problem, the precession (or orbit) MUST be allowed to occur for the weight shift to occur, and to gain the weight shift on for example an arm on the wheel, the weight must be mounted so that the precession movement then spins the weight towards and away from the axis of the PM wheel, which then brings a whole new set of problems into the equation. With precession, remember that if you decrease or stop it, the weight shift also decreases or stops.

Maybe I analyzed this too much, and could not see the forest for the trees, I don't know :) If anyone thinks this could be of interest, and wishes to investigate further, just be aware of all the forces involved, as, although the weight itself spinning on it's own axis doesn't lose angular momentum from the precession, and so requires only a small force to keep friction etc from slowing it down, other changes such as it's direction of angular momentum etc will have other effects on the PM wheel, canceling any perceived gain.

Anyway, basically the whole end point of it is that it shows that you CAN shift the weight of something spinning to a different point on a lever WITHOUT actually moving the weight (but allowing the precession orbit to take place).

Just one idea to get


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