My codespeculations so far..

[Oystein]

Here I offer a short document describing some suggestions regarding besslers use of numbers, and possible coding/decoding information, especially related to MT.

I don`t say this is it, but if we don`t keep an open mind we won`t find anything.. so here we go..

Best
Oystein

[daxwc]

Thanks very much Oystein!

Nice to see somebody else working on this and willing to share their ideas.

I need to take time to go through it, but I came to the same conclusion on some of your numbers. Sure some maybe going nowhere, but I think everybody realises he left clues.

[killemaces]

Niice work, not many norweigans on this forum:)
Its a special hobby i guess.......
Thanks fore sharing and good luck in solving it


Best regards
Rune

[Grimer]

I don't normally bother with interpretations of Bessler's ramblings, not because I don't think there is anything in them but because I am so far behind everyone else that I think my energies are best directed elsewhere. Also, I know no language but my own and am far too impatient for cross words, chess and code-breaking.

However, I must say your pdf has captured my attention.

In particular MT96 seems to me the very essence of Pop Keenie's Wheel which I am working towards at present.

Bessler shows two wheels, one above the other.
Keenie has two wheels, one inside the other. The outer wheel is in a sense "above" the inner wheel.

Bessler's superior wheel feeds water to the inferior wheel.
Keenie's superior outer wheel feeds weights to the inferior inner wheel.

The rotations of Bessler's wheels are locked together by an external crank.
The rotation of Kennie's wheels are locked together on a common axle.

Even the use of water is a clue since it is the vortical stress transfer aspect of the Keenie wheel which is vital to its comprehension.

[daxwc]

I like your work Øystein, but can I get your reasoning for using 26 letters Latin alphabet over using the 24 letter German alphabet in a publication that is in German. Can you show any positive proof that it is to be the 26 letter substitution alphabet?

Can anyone show me a good body of Latin work written in Bessler’s hand? I am of the opinion, if he had the Latin translated for him, it is less likely to be a body where he is hiding clues, it is human nature to work with the language you know.

I must admit, I am real hesitant about linking numbers off Apologia Poetica with the Maschinen Tractate. My reasoning behind this is I am of the belief that Bessler did not mean to publish it to the public and was to be used as a teaching aid, therefore any clues in MT’s are maybe just confined within that work. I do believe AP and DT have codes and are linked because of the following passages in AP.

John Collins http://www.free-energy.co.uk/
Apologia Poetica

He gives the correct answers to many questions, relates
All that has hitherto taken place, and reveals the principle upon
Which his Perpetuum Mobile revolves. In brief, this book contains
all that the world in its curiosity wishes to know, and reveals the
evil intentions of the Devil himself, the great enemy of Orffyreus.248 p

Let those who may read this little book reflect that my wishes
were centred on Him alone. And then let him look favourably
upon my Art. Finally, in one word, I wish that every place on
earth should possess my device. He who desires to have it is
truly a man of understanding. But he who reviles my device and
insults its inventor should read carefully this saying :-

"A man can be too clever to understand anything." 314 p

But now I shall have to pause, and live with my cares. How will
things go for me and this book of mine? Will people truly
understand what I'm getting at? The things that still remain to be
revealed will have to be left for a future occasion. 314 p

Rev.1,1 is it revisions or you biblicaly alluding to symbols?

[Oystein]

Rev 1,1 is my own revision number, as I hopefully will add more speculations..

Letters of the alphabet :
At the end of the 15th c. the alphabet was finally fixed as consisting of 26 letters: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Ref: http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/ ... habet.html

[Stewart]

Hi Oystein

Letters of the alphabet :
At the end of the 15th c. the alphabet was finally fixed as consisting of 26 letters: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

That's not strictly true. In Bessler's time even though different characters for i & j and u & v existed and were used in writing, the actual alphabet consisted of 24 letters. This 24 letter alphabet was used to label diagrams and for codes as you'll see by looking at various books from the time period. In Bessler's own works such as MT, DT & AP he is quite clearly using the 24 letter alphabet as I've mentioned before. Even Christian Wolff, when talking about how Bessler turned his name into Orffyre, shows the process using a 24 letter alphabet. It's very unlikely Bessler would have used a 26 letter alphabet for codes, but if you're not convinced then I would suggest trying both when you attempt any code-breaking.

All the best
Stewart

[rlortie]

Stewart,

With the most popular first name of the day being 'Johann' or 'Johan' what did they use if there was not 'J'? Need not try to print it here but maybe you can lead me to it.

Ralph

[Grimer]

There is no J in the Scottish Gaelic alphabet. I suppose that's how the name Ian arises rather than Jan.

[Stewart]

With the most popular first name of the day being 'Johann' or 'Johan' what did they use if there was not 'J'?

You didn't read my post properly - I said "even though different characters for i & j and u & v existed and were used in writing, the actual alphabet consisted of 24 letters". You've fallen into the same trap as John Collins in assuming that because you can see a 'j' character it was counted as a separate item in the alphabet. You only need look at any document from Bessler's time period that contains an alphabet to see that the 24 letter alphabet was the one in use. Just look at an old German dictionary of the time and you'll see that 'I' and 'J' are taken as the same character - there is no regard for 'J' following 'I' as all words beginning with I/J are sorted based on the alphabetical order of the remain letters (e.g. 'Jahr' comes before 'In'). In some fraktur fonts (look at DT for example) you'll see that there is no separate character for an uppercase 'J' and that the uppercase 'I' character is used for both. The lowercase 'j' does have a slightly modified character however - it's basically an 'i' with a small descending line making it look more like the 'j' character we're familiar with. It's also common in Latin and other languages to see an 'I' used where we would now put a 'J' - for example with names you'd see 'Iohannes' instead of 'Johannes'. We even have a forum member with the name "iacob alex". Bear in mind also that 'Johann' is pronounced 'Yohann' in German. Anyway that's getting a bit sidetracked from the matter, and there's plenty of information on the internet about the details of the German alphabet and others, so there's not much point in me going into any more detail here. The most relevant way of proving to yourself that a 24 letter alphabet was in use in Bessler's time is to look at Bessler's own writings. You'll see in MT and DT that he labels images missing out the 'j' and 'u'. Even more relevant is that the albam code from AP can only be decoded properly using a 24 letter alphabet:

QRE PNFFYRE ZNA WFG TRIWF, HBA QRZ YRGMG TRFPVEWORA.


Stewart

[Oystein]

Stewart, I don`t dismiss your proposal, that 24 letters where used.

Can you please elaborate on this statement :

Even more relevant is that the album code from AP can only be decoded properly using a 24 letter alphabet.:
QRE PNFFYRE ZNA WFG TRIWF, HBA QRZ YRGMG TRFPVEWORA.

This will decode to : "der cassler man ist gewis, von dem letze geschriben"

I guess you mean the "Albam code" ?, and where do you get that text from ?

PS! I have a copy of the AP book.

Best
Oystein

[Stewart]

I guess you mean the "Albam code" ?, and where do you get that text from ?

Whoops, tryping error! I did indeed mean 'albam' - I've corrected it now in my post.
The line of code is on the page before page 1 of AP. It will only decoded properly (as shown in your post) if the 24 letter alphabet is used - try it with the 26 and you'll get errors.

Stewart

[Oystein]

Sorry, I can`t find it :-(
I have John Collins version. Isn`t that textline in there ?

Best
Oystein

[Stewart]

It's on page 15 of John's AP book. There are a few mistakes though: the first O should be a Q; there should be a YR before the GMG; and I'm not sure about the SA as it would decode as FN which isn't a word. However, I'm unable to confirm if an extra word really exists there because in the copy of the original I have there is a library stamp where that word would be, so I would need to make a trip back to the library to check the actual book or find another copy to confirm if there is a word there or not. I am planning a trip back to the library soon, so will check it then, but if anyone can find an online copy of AP then please let me know. There are lots of online copies of DT, but so far I've been unable to find any online copies of AP.

Stewart

[daxwc]

AP: http://www.free-energy.co.uk/

NB ORE PNFFYRE ZNA WFG TRIWF HBA QRZ GMG SA
TRFPVEWORA.
Verharre inmittelst meines hochge
Ehrtesteff Herrn Commercien-Raths
Treu-Ergebenster D.H.

pg 20 of AP digital or pg 15 of Bessler's



http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... sler#53053

Edit: I see you got in there first Stewart ;)