Fletcher's Wheel - Ingenuity verses Entropy

[ovyyus]

Power is related to speed?
Pendulums govern speed, then also govern power, or rate wheel does work?
Faster wheel not more powerful than slower wheel?
On wheel ouput page, power is
"Horse power can be calculated if we know how much weight is lift, how far it is lifted, and the time needed to lift the weight. "

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... eel_Output

Is power and speed not related? Maybe I don't understand.

A fast wheel lifting a small weight might develop the same power as a slow wheel lifting a large weight. Gearing allows constant output power with variable speed. If wheel torque remains constant then power would reduce with speed.

[daxwc]

daxwc wrote:
Bessler says it is for smoothing out power.

Bill: I thought Bessler said the pendulums were a speed governor.

"8. Pendulums on each side to keep machine running true." DT-pg 348 digital.

[Dunesbury]

A fast wheel lifting a small weight might develop the same power as a slow wheel lifting a large weight. Gearing allows constant output power with variable speed. If wheel torque remains constant then power would reduce with speed.

If both fast and slow wheel lift same weight, then fast wheel is more powerful.
Either way we say, power and speed have relationship.
If pendulums kept machine running true, then 'govern speed' and 'smooth out power' seem to both be valid statement in this example.

[ovyyus]

8. Pendulums on each side to keep machine running true.

True to what? An adjusted speed?

Given that witnesses never described the pendulums being attached during the wheel demonstrations then 'smoothing out the power' doesn't seem like their likely purpose.

Sorry Fletcher, this is off topic.

[ruggerodk]

...Not sure if that makes any sense, google redirected me to this patent on one of my "MOI flywheel" searches

relevent? http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US8373368

ANS: that was interesting, on quick read it looks like a hub that works in the same way as a Watts governor - except as you say the CF's compress masses to supposedly to reduce the MOI ...

Actually, I believe it's a Porter Governor.
If you have it configured as a horisontal shaft it's gravity neutral.

It's a very interesting application, one which I've been studiing for a long time. Though I'm not much of a math genius, I really appreciate the sharing and effort by Fletcher to make it comprehensible.

My experiments right now are directed towards the amount of input energy to bring the Porter Governor from zero to max rpm (i.e. max CF), comparring input energy to CF force.
It looks promising ;-)

regards
Ruggero ;-)

[Fletcher]

Hi Ruggerodk ..

Thanks for your comments & joining the thread.

Whilst one-upmanship is far from my mind Rugger I'm soon going to release what is probably my favourite design.

The reason I mention it now is that it builds on what I've been talking about & also is a Cf, 'gravity neutral' design that you just mentioned as a promising direction, hence the call to action in agreement with you - what might be called a 'Motion Wheel'.

It would appear to create 'imbalance' in wheel format, but not as you'd expect imbalance to be - the imbalance is not due to weight imbalance but to force imbalance i.e. periodic torque on one side of the wheel that exhibits exactly as weight imbalance would look like IMO (perhaps could even be called excess impetus) - a force is a force is a force I guess.

I am unable to sim it completely as it requires building functions that I can not do reliably, if at all, in WM, so I have to visualize it the old fashioned way.

I can say that the theory of the principle of excess force seems easy enough to follow to me & seems to make sense as to how it would work as desired - but then I've been refining these things for a while & sometimes we get to close to an idea or principle to always see it objectively - we will see what others think when I get to it, or I'll have to change my name to 'crazy fletch' ;7)

P.S. no problems Bill.

[Fletcher]

As promised ..

[Fletcher]

Phases; Alternate Rack & Pinion concepts, fixed or moving floating gears.

[FunWithGravity2]

Hey Fletcher,
looking forward to studying the idea, thanks for sharing. After a long weekend in US (Columbus Day) relaxing at 10pm and into my third very large bloody mary(for the lycopene of course) and had to check in to see what was unreadable on my "smartphone" i decided it would take a clearer mind than presently available but wanted acknowledge your contribution.


Cheers Mate.

Crazy Dave

[Fletcher]

No problems Dave.

It is quite simple really when you see that the red driver mass (piston) moves out to the right a small ways due to Cf's (inertia & momentum) N.B. it does need a latch & release system - because the driver is geared to the double ended balanced flail (which moves under Cf's as well) then energy is only expended to rotate the flail via the rack & pinion, not lift it as we all have tried to do at one time or another & is the bane of all Roberval Balance systems trying to create weight unbalance, to date.

N.B. the horizontal 'structure' is moving away from (lagging behind) the rim stop position in relative terms creating a distance differential & gradient we can exploit & use as an 'escape' path so to speak - all systems need a differential of some sort.

Anyway, the flail (yellow m2) keeps contact with the rim stop & applies pressure to it because of Cpf's in the driver, which in turn keeps the flail against the rim stop & applying force till after 3 o'cl, when they move apart.

After 6 o'cl greater Cf's in the outer flail mass (green m2) closest the rim starts the processs of the flail returning to vertical orientation assisted by the Cf's of the driver transitioning back to the left again to reset.

Hope that helps your visualization process when your head clears, wish I was there ;7)

P.S. remember that Cpf = mv^2/r in Newtons.

ETA: I tried many similar actions in the past, trying to get KE transfer to the rim stops, both on the descending leg & on the return upwards leg - the gentle push force is what is required i.e. force imbalance.

[Fletcher]

Dave .. it was necessary for me to make my drawings of such a size & scale to see the intended workings of the rack & pinion mech, where the driver mass is connected to the flail mech, as this is a key element.

It may be helpful to imagine the driver on the down leg only moving sideways a few centimeters (less than an inch) which is geared to the flail, which in turn only rotates a maximum of 90 degrees from 1.30 to past 3.00 o'cl - the process reverses on the up leg for reset.

We know from the hangar & batteries experiment that a mass moving to a greater radius will lose some energy proportional to the radial distance increase - in this case a very small amount because the distance increase in miniscule & therefore the forward component of the vector is almost entirely conserved - & the KE & momentum is not lost but is transferred to the rim stop board - you might think of it as 'strain' energy if it helps visualize it.

The key is that the driver mass is held at its new radius by Cpf's, but because it is not locked in position it continues to exert pressure (force) on the rim stop - as the rim stop tries to open the gap between itself & the flail the driver creeps outwards & the flail rotates & keeps the pressure on the rim stop plate - so rather than a one-off KE impact where we lose KE from deformation, heat & sound etc, we get a force applied for an extended period of time & circumference distance - that means we are not concerned with what materials we use or their elasticity, how much noise it makes, or whether we use felt to muffle it etc.

Most people have looked into Roberval Balance systems - all realize that because of the nature of Robervals (torque equalization) that if they could hang a weight from the arm & then rest it on a rim stop at a greater radius then the background wheel would turn gathering momentum due to weight imbalance (shifted effective CG) - in this case I am replacing weight force imbalance with Cpf imbalance & it is acting for long periods - best of all I don't have to lift weights to cause the weight imbalance as per pure Roberval Systems.

My current hypothesis is that using this 'strain method metaphor' we get a greater momentum transfer than one-off impacts & springs can achieve, which allows positive reinforcement or self acceleration &, increase in system momentum & KE etc i.e potential mechanical method for a self sustaining motion wheel.

[FunWithGravity2]

Fletcher, initial observations after briefly studying.


So much of the description makes sense w/o the diagrams but become conflicting for me when viewing the design.

Things that would need real world proof/experimentation for me to reconcile.

1. Actual force of the flail applied to the stop considering the forces acting upon it during rotation. ie will the flail apply its force at rights agles to the stop when CF if acting outward radially on it?

2. How does the COM of the Flail and stator assembly respond to mass fluctations caused byi its motion (time travel) and does the counterweight in response provide any reverse torque in relation to that.

Thoughts?


Crazy Dave

[Tarsier79]

1. Actual force of the flail applied to the stop considering the forces acting upon it during rotation.

That is the show stopper, or starter right there. Is the inertia of the drive mass enough to maintain or increase rotation of the main wheel? How much energy is lost through radial displacement of the driver, and reaccelerating it left then right each rotation?

Dave, Theoretically, if built correctly, there should be no mass OB causing torque in either direction due to the RB mechanism, and it redirecting the felt mass at its pivot.

[daxwc]

Fletcher is the wheel principle the impact of the flail or supposed to be just the transferring of felt mass?

[FunWithGravity2]

Hello Tarsier,

Theoretically is one thing real world is definately another. Having trouble in my mind reconciling "roverbial balance" with the artificial horizon and the fact that the "balance mech" has non static components acting under fictitious forces. Most likely more complicated than i can grasp so may be my own failing and not the designs.


Q3; is the flail neutral with both mass' being equal? what causes the flail to rotate CW and not CCW?

Q4: If gravity neutral why just a drive phase from 130-3?

Sorry in advance if the questions are more simplistic and related to the understanding and not more able to help hash out whether it works,yet. I'll be the dumb guy in the audience watching it turn and asking "so whats it good for"



Crazy Dave