Fletcher's Wheel - Ingenuity verses Entropy

[Fletcher]

To set the scene, so to speak - some thought processes for those interested.

I am interested in finding an interventionist "structure" or "mechanism" that can go inside a wheel format that can then influence many different forms of gravity only derived temporary imbalance mechanisms, the ones that always keel & are in MT for instance.

I would call that the "Prime Mover Structure" [PMS].

The realization came to me late that the PMS would always waste energy & be sub OU - I was under the illusion for a long time that any such structure would have to display OU tendencies itself but that didn't reconcile with having to include a secondary gravity only temporary imbalance mechanism, of any sort - else I could just have a wheel filled with PMS's.

Any PMS could not be a gravity only solution because gravity is conservative - it would have to use a freely available ambient force that didn't need physical replenishment [such as chemical reactions, exothermic or endothermic] & was generated on demand in a dynamic environment - that limited the choices to mechanical Cf's, heat &/or pressure exchanges, aerodynamics, & pneumatics in my mind, to name a few possibilities.

But if the problem was that a mechanical PMS was sub OU then we could never get more Ke or Pe replenishment out of it less losses to the environment as ordinary frictional losses etc [standard scenario] - therefore the PMS had to intervene in a wheel, lose energy, but create a wheel that was forever chasing its keel point but could not find it - thus as Curtis suggests a "top Heavy" wheel format might be best, continually unstable v's the inevitable stability of the ordinary kind of imbalance - still the PMS needed to replenish or reset itself during a cycle.

The concept of a mechanical Cf PMS needed to have some internal degrees of freedom, to develop inertial forces that could be put to use - it was apparent that a balanced mechanism such as a Roberval Balance would not interfere with the system imbalance itself but could be used to unbalance a temporary imbalance secondary system [if that could be engineered to repeat] ... OR ... it could use the inertia its parts generated to switch something on or off ... OR ... it could be a kind of piston - that piston could physically displace a mass located elsewhere via pulleys & cables, hard linkages, hydraulics or pneumatics - but still, changing a masses radius invokes problems of symmetry between energy & MOI etc.

The problem was that it was highly unlikely that any velocity or Ke or momentum generated from a sliding 'driver' mass would add more than its own isolated energy or inertia to the wheel system whole - the system would have to be fooled somehow - the RBGS seemed like a reasonable start but it had problems too - when I come back some of the observations & things I found trying to use the RBGS, which may be of interest to those contemplating such systems.

[DrWhat]

I keep seeing a piston or something similar shifting along the axle pushing cords or rods through holes in the axle.

But the energy source to achieve this movement escapes me. Ah, the elusive energy source.

[Fletcher]

Hopefully Damian I can show a logical progression to bellows & venturi low pressure areas that might tip the scale & allow ambient air pressure to do the work for us to a degree.

We are all pretty familiar with force pumps being able to lift a head of water to 10 meters - the ambient air pressure holds the column of water in the pipe & you only have to lift a small portion each time you pump to evacuate the pump pressure system.

Whilst not the same as this I think we could possibly defeat (or cause a symmetry break) at the localized CoE equation level using a venturi in combination with the piston driven by Cf's (inertial forces) - you can not defeat the whole of system CoE rules/laws however, & we wouldn't expect to.

It might be an interesting journey for those looking into other forces besides gravity - it might get some minds thinking, especially builders with practical experience of these matters yet to be discussed.

I'm a little pressed for time at the moment so will get back with next instalments as I can.

[primemignonite]

Thusly, our own Fletcher has opined:

* * * * *
"I am interested in finding an interventionist "structure" or "mechanism" that can go inside a wheel format that can then influence many different forms of gravity only derived temporary imbalance mechanisms, the ones that always keel & are in MT for instance.

I would call that the "Prime Mover Structure" [PMS]."
* * * * *

Naturally.

Who wouldn't be?

I predict this will be found to be (and to have been for Bessler) of the type FERROMAGNETIC.

Consider as to what by its absence is most conspicuous, within all of the Besslerian literature and imagery.

Ta-ta!

James

[Fletcher]

Let's start here again - CW rotation.

Here is a Roberval Balance Gearing System - single sliding driver [the lateral piston effect].

Note that I give the system a starting RPM & monitor the velocities & KE's, including Total System KE.

The driver [piston] will start moving laterally due to Cf's when the angle between the T-bar & the pendulum shaft is greater than 90 degrees [around tdc] - it hits the stops at around 3 o'cl.

Driver KE increases considerably during the transition but at the expense of the background wheel masses momentum & KE - sort of sling shot effect.

The piston could do Work, either increasing another internal masses KE or PE [I have tried these approaches including a hanging weight that rests on rim stops to unbalance the system & cause rotation].


Run the sim to see the actions & numbers etc.

[Fletcher]

Here I include the dual RBGS pistons.

It is probably clear to most that I lose a lot of energy when the piston collides with the T-Bar stops.

This is identical to Wubbly's hangar & batteries experiment - where doubling the radius halves the velocity [rpm] & quarters the KE etc.

In those the KE was wasted on contacts at right angles to the direction of travel.

The same energy was required to be inputted to restore original conditions i.e. halve the radius doubled the speed & quadrupled the KE.

..............

The same relationships exist here with the piston & RBGS - energy is wasted unless we recover it & use it elsewhere.

i.e. symmetry betwen KE & MOI.

BUT, we shouldn't expect to get OU I shouldn't think ?! - because the KE of the piston saved or recovered will at best only give an equivalent amount of KE or PE stored in another internal mass.

[Fletcher]

The piston could be an external sliding mech like the sim, or be a cylinder inside a pipe [like a car piston or plunger] or could be attached to a bellows type arrangement - other ways of using the KE of the piston is to connect to other internal masses via pulleys & ropes/chains, hard linkages [levers], & hydraulic & pneumatic couplings.

When I come back I'll discuss the most basic of problems with temporary OOB devices & explain how it might be possible to create a continuous OOB device that is either top heavy as Curtis raised or always has a CoG/CoM to one side - this option often requires a coasting in balance mode from my experience.

BUT ... I think to have an OU/PM device requires some help from the environment in the form of the Carnot cycle, so ultimately might be considered a heat engine, although it might be an ingenious one & one perhaps we as a group can solve.

[Fletcher]

Remember Bessler added a late drawing to the toy page - the hand drawn spinning top that was further identified as a whistling top i.e. it uses a venturi effect & Cf's.

Additonally there were two sets of hammermen showing a left & right movement of masses.

P.S. I already tried having the driver impact a '5' [symmetrical 5 pivoted in the center] shaped arrangement on the end of the T-Bar to take the drivers KE & convert it to RKE of the '5' to impact on the rim & give the entire wheel momentum.

If there was a a difference in the RKE of the '5' due to MOI [where the mass was distributed] being an mv relationship & not a mv^2 relationship then that should result in a net system energy gain !

[daanopperman]

Hi Fletcher ,

Sorry to come to the party so late , you stated " heat &/or pressure exchanges aerodynamics & pneumatics ".

Pressure differences & pneumatics is what I am thinking of .
To move a coloumb of air that has very little mass cannot take a lot of energy , but doing it right and using it in the right way can give a lot of free energy , one example of this is the use of free thrust in modern airliner engines. Air is ducted past the outside of the turbine to give free thrust , it does not cause the use of extra fuel to be burnt to gain this free energy and it does not pass through the turbine .
In vacuum generators a small amount of high pressure air is directed through a nozzle , with the same ducted air to cause a large amount of flowing air .
If a collapsable container is evacuated by moving the air out of it with speed , the atmospheric pressure will collapse the walls of the container ( a open ended bellows comes to mind ) .
This moving air and the Organs Pipes , could they have used the same idea to let extra air into the bigger tubes from the bottom side to save on human labour who had to supply the compressed air to drive the organ .

[Fletcher]

Hi Dann .. yes, we are thinking on the same wave length there.

I just don't have the empirical experience with these things, you obviously do which is great - Bill knows about Stirling engines & hot & cold sinks etc for example.

I feel strongly that pneumatics maybe can be used & I will run thru some of that theory later.

I was always suspicious of the 'inspection ports' in JB wheels, located nearer the axle - for instance they could be where ambient air is drawn into the wheel & hotter air vented out near the rim for instance.

N.B. Cf's cause air to separate into temperature gradients.

N.B. the Carnot cycle has adiabatic & isothermal legs - this gives an opportunity for ambient air to either warm or cool internal wheel air etc, introducing ambient energy into the localized system.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... arnot.html

http://www.ohio.edu/people/piccard/phys ... arnot.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible ... ynamics%29

How that might be done is what I wish to jointly explore with all the members, especially those with practical experiences.

I think that radial bellows could be useful & soon I will attempt to show how the piston connected by pneumatic lines could partially evacuate the bellows [lower pressure] & the surrounding atmosphere would do the work of collapsing the bellows against gravity.

What it would need to be OU I think is the 'extra oomph' that the Carnot cycle might provide if used ingeniously i.e. flash cooling effect of a venturi.

It pays to have some understanding of ideal fluids, Charles & Boyle's gas laws &, entropy in thermodynamics i.e. heat flows in one direction from hot to cold.

[Fletcher]

Thusly, our own Fletcher has opined:

* * * * *
"I am interested in finding an interventionist "structure" or "mechanism" that can go inside a wheel format that can then influence many different forms of gravity only derived temporary imbalance mechanisms, the ones that always keel & are in MT for instance.

I would call that the "Prime Mover Structure" [PMS]."
* * * * *

Naturally.

Who wouldn't be?

I predict this will be found to be (and to have been for Bessler) of the type FERROMAGNETIC.

Consider as to what by its absence is most conspicuous, within all of the Besslerian literature and imagery.

Ta-ta!

James

Almost missed this - care to add some meat to your bones James, about ferromagnetic materials ?

And since you are also an experienced organ builder of repute whose opinions would be well respected & welcomed.

[daanopperman]

Hi Fletcher ,

To create a temp difference is not so difficult , the difficult part is to create a temp difference large enough to be usefull . Compressing a gas raises the temp very quickly and very high , but you have to have the other side of the coin , as soon as you reverse the pressure , the gas cools down just as fast . In the turning wheel we do not have time to use that heat generated by say a piston driven by CF , and the source is turning with the wheel , whereas in a Stirling Engine , the heat source is constantly in the on position and not moving with the wheel .
I place a small drawing of a pneumatic vacuum generator , no moving parts , just a series of expanding tubes air flow through at high velocity . I do not count the movement of the flap valves as moving parts in the generator .

[Fletcher]

Thanks for the contributions Daan ..

I am thinking more along the lines of a piston sucking air volume from an air tight bellows i.e. lowering the pressure - this in of itself will lower the bellows internal air temp - then the bellows is unlatched allowing it to collapse till pressures are equalized again both inside & out.

The unlatching can occur so that the moving portion of the bellows [whose mass distribution was causing temporary OOB condition] is lifted against gravity force, by external air pressure doing the work, thus bringing the wheel into balance again so it can coast.

I'll start to explain this rough concept shortly.

We are taught that the laws of thermodynamics & CoE etc say that it takes just as much energy to compress a gas to a certain pressure as the energy it takes to lower the pressure by the same amount.

This applies to an ideal fluid & is the basis of Bernoulli's Fluid dynamics where he started from the proposition that CoE applied to dynamic fluids.

In this case I'm looking to further cool the internal bellows air temp e.g. blasting air at high velocity over a surface (venturi) will lower the pressure & create a temperature gradient with air inside a bellows, as long as the bellows material conducts heat - heat will flow from warm to cold - if this is done before latch release the volume in the bellows gets cooler (isothermal cooling) & shrinks some more - later the ambient heat (adiabatic warming) will infuse the internal air again restoring normalized pressures.

Effectively a spring whose length is controlled by temp differences.

And an opportunity for external Energy to enter a seemingly closed system.

Or something like that !

[Mark]

... some thought processes for those interested ...

:)

You've got my attention.

[ovyyus]

Effectively a spring whose length is controlled by temp differences.

And an opportunity for external Energy to enter a seemingly closed system.

Reverse cycle stirling engine with a twist? http://www.stirlinginternational.org/do ... _cycle.asp