Wheel acceleration...

[poppen]

Schleiffstein caught my eye, and I started translating. Maybe someone will find it helpful.

(Note: My translation. In the original, some sentences are quite long. Latin words are roughly translated, and not too surprisingly, appear commonly in German and English.)

If you want to describe its horizontal, fixed-axle (like a grindstone) rotating disc or narrow cylinder, as a wheel, so could the main component of my machine be described; the wheel is also composed of a protective, external linen cloth, like a drum or tamborine, of which the primary cylinder is twelve feet in diameter with a profile thickness of fifteen to eighteen inches. The central, "through" axle is six feet long, and eight inches thick in cross-section. For rotation, it rests on two nearly one inch thick steel pegs across two open bushings, around which the whole vertically suspended wheel undergoes its self-propelled rotary motion; on both sides somewhat modified pendula can be attached, as clearly shown in the illustrations at the end of this endeavor.

My mind knows that "niedrig" should be translated as "narrow", however the dictionary doesn't back that up.

[bluesgtr44]

Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen.

From this sight under "writings" then "das triumphans".

One is a disc, one is a drum...

Get me past this sentence right here, guys. TWO WHEELS! No doubting this! TWWWWOOOOOO WHEELS!

Being a grad of D.S.U., old style German language was not even offered. Correct me if I am wrong on this, Ralph. I just don't remember that class being offered. I remember "guzzling 101"...but nothing about German.

Steve

[bluesgtr44]

WHOA! Thanks Popper...now that is a great difference in interpretation. The shaft is the "grindstone". It would fit as far as "narrow" being the word instead of "hallow".

Really would like some clarification of this. I have some ideas now and really could clear up a lot if I was sure of this translation.

Steve

[jim_mich]

Good grief! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

German sent to Babel Fish

Dann wann man einen um seine horizontaliter vest gestellte Axin, nach Art eines Schleifsteins umlaufenden Discum oder niedrigen Cylindrum ein Rad nennen will, so kann das Hauptstück meiner Machine auch so heissen; und demnach besteht dieses Rad aus einem äusserlich mit gewärter Leinwand überzogenen Tympano oder Tambour, dessen Basis Cylindrica im Diameter 12. Fuß Rheinländisch, die Höhe, Dicke oder Profil aber, in 15. bis 18. Zoll hält. Die mitten durchgehend Axe oder Welle ist 6. Fuß lang, und 8. Zoll im Durchschnitt dicke. Sie ruht in ihrer Bewegung auf zweien fast 1. Zoll dicken, am Ort etwas zugespitzten stählern Zapfen Waagrecht in denen zweien Pfannen oder Zapfenlagern, mit zweien Courven versehen, um an selbigen den Motum rotatorium des ganzen also verticaliter suspendirten Rades, durch beiderseits zu applicirende Pendula etwa modificiren zu können, wie beigefügte Figuren zu Ende dieses Tractats deutlich zeigen.

English returned by Babel Fish http://babelfish.altavista.com/

When one vest around its more horizontaliter Axin posed, according to kind of a whet-stone circulating Discum or low Cylindrum a wheel to call wants, then the main piece of my Machine can is also in such a way called; and therefore this wheel consists covered Tympano or tambour, its basis Cylindrica of one outwardly with gewaerter canvas in the dia. meter of 12. Foot Rheinlaendisch, the height, thickness or profile however, in 15. to 18. Tariff holds. Those continuous Axe or wave is 6 in the middle. Foot long, and 8. Tariff thickens on the average. It rests in its motion on two nearly 1. Tariff, at the place something course-sharpened steel taps horizontal in those two pans or ball and socket bearings, with two Courven thicken provided, in order to be able to modificiren at the selbigen Motum rotatorium the whole thus more verticaliter suspendirten Rades, through on both sides to applicirende Pendula about, as attached figures point this Tractats clearly to end.

Now guzzle one of those beers, cross your eyes a little, and read the fractured English returned by Babel Fish. You can get the feeling of what is being said. Nowhere does it speak of an inner wheel!

Just my humble opinion.

[poppen]

I fought with myself regarding placement of the "(like a grindstone)" phrase, and placed it poorly to more closely match the order of the original. In english, it would have been better to follow the other two descriptions as a clarifying addendum. It appears Bessler wrote this as if he was speaking, inserting lots of additional phrases, and without the benefit of enough punctuation. As an aside, I find Bessler's puzzled tone in this sentence somewhat amusing.

[Stewart]

Here is my translation:

For if one wants to refer to a rotating disc or shallow cylinder, fixed horitzontally about its axis in the manner of a grindstone, as a "wheel", then the main piece of my Machine can also be called this; and so this "wheel" consists of a drum or tambourine covered externally with a protective cloth, whose cylindrical base is 12 Rhineland foot in diameter (the height), though the thickness or profile is 15 to 18 inches. The continuous middle axle or shaft is 6 foot long, and on average 8 inches thick. It is supported when in motion on a pair of almost 1 inch thick, somewhat tapered steel journals located horizontal in a pair of sockets or bearings, and they are equiped with two curves, with which the rotary motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel can be regulated by connecting pendula on both sides, as the enclosed figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.


Stewart

[Stewart]

Thanks Stewart...but, I disagree! I think you are running the two paragraphs together, they are two different descriptions. The second paragraph you refer to is a description of the outer wheel only...the one the weights "drive" on, the inner wheel is the "runner", the weights "run" with this wheel. The "narrow" description to me is a signifier that it is not the same as the outer wheel..

The two paragraphs I'm refering two are the paragraphs in the original Apologia Poetica document. The first one (as posted earlier) is quite obviously just a description of the outward appearance of the wheel. The very next paragraph goes on to talk about the internal structure of the wheel. Nowhere in this first paragraph in question does it mention an internal wheel. However, this doesn't mean that your idea of a wheel inside the outer wheel is wrong, only that the passage of text does not support the idea.

Again, I am using the statement as it appears on this web site. I believe if it is read as interpreted by J. Collins...there is a wheel inside of a wheel. No doubt! But, it depends on interpretation.

Which page on the website are you talking about? Is it this one:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings/da ... phans.html

If so it is not done by John's translator (Mike Senior) and is not from John's DT book. In John's DT book it says "narrow" cylinder.

Am I totally off?

You're idea may still be valid, just not supported by Bessler's statement.

What we do get from the statement:

- the wheel is a hollow cylinder
- it has canvas covered ends
- it is mounted vertically
- its shaft/axle passes right through (is not broken)
- it is supported by two journals that rest in two bearings
- the journals are steel, tapered and curved at the end
- the motion of the wheel can be regulated by attaching pendula to these curved journal ends

Regards,
Stewart

[Michael]

Just my two cents bluesgtr44 but there are a lot of misquotes and personal made translations as well as wives tales about Bessler all over the net.

Mike

Though Stewart this part is interesting;
with which the rotary motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel can be regulated by connecting pendula on both sides, as the enclosed figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.

This is the first time I've seen this. There goes my Messenburg theory.

[Stewart]

Though Stewart this part is interesting;
with which the rotary motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel can be regulated by connecting pendula on both sides, as the enclosed figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.

This is the first time I've seen this. There goes my Messenburg theory.

I'm not sure why you haven't heared that before! It is also in John's DT book, as follows:

"...the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights, as the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate."

What was your Merseburg wheel theory, and how does this cause a problem?

Regards,
Stewart

[Fletcher]

Hi Blue,

Back to your original point. In order for a substantial wheel to accelerate up to optimum speed within 2 or 3 turns would indicate to me that 1. the wheel was majorly "Out of Balance" & 2. that OOB was continuously so (though this could be debateable).

If there is a major imbalance at work in the mechanism then that could probably be achieved by at least two means. 1. lifting top & bottom weights simultaneously at about the 6 & 12 o'cl positions or a variation of this. The greater the differential in circumference track achieved the greater the available torque to accelerate the wheel up to speed quickly. 2. as you suggest - temporarily remove the influence of the weight at the 6-9 quadrant & reinsert its influence again at the 12-3 quadrant. If you do this manually the wheel shows tremendous torque & potential to accelerate but this is not real world because as yet you cannot simply remove a weight & reinstate it again later without teleportation (using the analogy someone else suggested previously).

So which is it ? Lift it up top & bottom or temporarily remove it & then replace it. Which ever it was created a large imbalance in the wheel that allowed it to accelerate quickly.

[Michael]

There is another way too Fletcher, it would be the wheel rotated solely by the means of springs which in turn got their power from weights. I don't think this idea has ever been considered, and if it has it hasn't been discussed much. In other words instead of gravity partially driving the wheel and partially powering springs which also partially drive the wheel, a wheel is completely driven by springs which get the power from weights. The wheel resets the weights positions only.

I am going to post a part of the poem that I believe points to this duel system, however it is used.

The Buyer buys, the Seller sells. This verse indicates, all things being equal - a system of trade. One thing is exchanged for another, and it benifits both parties. The buyer (weights under gravity) buys; applys some of it's gain to store potential to a spring, and the Seller sells, (springs) use their power to complete the circut, bringing the total system back to the beginning again.


Sincerely,

Mike

[Michael]

What was your Merseburg wheel theory, and how does this cause a problem?
Regards,
Stewart

Hi Stewart,

We'll I've seen this mentioned before but I've never seen the actual quote. It' s misleading because the common quote is the wheel runs on pendulums that are in a modified form that the end of this treatise clearly demonstrates. This quote is even on this board and its misleading and continues to mislead people. I've seen people state otherwise but have never actually seen it. My theory behind the Messenburg drawing of these pendulums was that they were modified but the most important aspect of it was the system they were hooked up to. That these weren't cranks but a different kind of system entirely. You'll find examples of ideas of it in my main topic thread. I was thinking that this was Bessler being generous and supplying a substitute for the interconnected principle, which is proving hard to conceptualize. Basing this on the drawings I posted it could work as Vic., I believe said where weights were counter balanced against each other, but there has to be more to it than just this.

As I've mentioned to someone else I won't be on here that much from now on. I'll check messages and post if I come up with anything relevent but other work in my life is greatly suffering right now.

Later,

Mike

[rlortie]

Being a grad of D.S.U., old style German language was not even offered. Correct me if I am wrong on this, Ralph. I just don't remember that class being offered. I remember "guzzling 101"...but nothing about German.
Steve

Steve ,

Your right DSU did not offer German language, on the other hand they did not teach that Besslers active device was made up of only one wheel.

They did however teach that if you are educated and cannot find agreement, it is easier to change the text to match your point.

The following statements are meant for the forum consensus and not in reply directly to Steve.

I refuse to follow the flock in the pursuance of one wheel and no pendulums. when I first joined this forum, my first or second thread was regarding pendulums and crank journals. I was politely informed that the member consensus was that Bessler did not use either one.

Now the pendulums are back and the question is, are there two wheels and for what purpose the pendulum.

Why does one not perceive what is going on here. do I have to give away my whole secret or just quit posting on besslerwheel.com. Frankly I believe I will have to become a lurker before I give my and possibly one others concepts away.

I am not the only member that feels this way, In layman terms I have been patted harshly on the paw and told that I am revealing to much even though I put it in parables as Bessler did.

Do you not understand that "accordingly" means a minimum of two. Do you not understand the thread that talks of some other source of mass or energy to accommodate gravity and accordingly work as one to perform work. It is all right there in writing, If you can not see it please do not re-interpit the translation of the text in a biased way to fit your needs.

I and one other member will likely be posting less here and doing more lurking. It will be hard, as this forum has proven to be addictive.

Got a comment or wish to discuss pros and cons I am at rlortie@uci.net

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph, it is certainly possible that Bessler's wheels DID contain a central pendulum that functioned to maintain wheel rotation while weights were being "regaged" on the descending side of the wheel. However, I lean away from this possibility because it would seem TOO mechanically involved. The mechanism is supposed to be SIMPLE..."so simple that a carpenter's boy to make it".

ken

[ovyyus]

If you can not see it please do not re-interpit the translation of the text in a biased way to fit your needs

Ralph, several years ago (before Besslerwheel.com) John, myself and a few others formed a private little discussion group that, in part, grappled with exact wording of translations just like you are doing now.

What we realised was that 300 year old German text translation was more an artform that an exact science and that it was somewhat risky to take literal meanings from particular wordings or phrasings. I think to make matters even worse the original author here is purposely remaining vague and cryptic.

To the point: No translation is completely un-biased in the first place. Attempts to redefine certain translation elements that are presently unclear or confusing can therefore not fairly be seen as any more biased than what has previously been presented.

On the contrary, through experience and better understanding there is every possibility that new translations might in fact result in a more accurate representation of what Bessler was trying to convey. It is frustrating that we might never arrive at an exacting word perfect translation - but I like to hope we can get the gist.

Actually, I think there are two 'gists' going on here... the translators interpretation (Mike Senior, Stewart, etc) and the readers interpretation (you, me, etc). What's in a singular word when it has a different meaning for different people in different times? Worse still, there are some words that don't even have an English equivalent, beyond a lengthy explanatory phrase!