there may be magic

[Techstuf]

Interesting observation Ken.

Could I get you to post your understanding of the analogous statements being made in the last.....and curiously 'lackluster' Star Wars movie?

Just an idea.


TS

[ken_behrendt]

Sorry, Techstuff...I have not seen the last Star Wars movie, but I heard that it is supposed to be the best of the last three movies although a little on the violent side with a total of 5 light sabre fights!

If you can briefly describe the scene that you are referring to, then I would be happy to give my mythologically-oriented opinion of it.

There is a LOT of religious and esoteric symbolism in practically all of the Star Wars films. They are basically fairy tales with Princesses and knights and little people converted into sprawling space operas. They, generally, are good entertainment and, of course, show that "good" will ALWAYS triumph over "evil". They tend, I think, to fulfill mankind's relentless quest for justice in a cosmos that sometimes does not supply this when it's needed the most...

ken

[Techstuf]

Yeah, I'm not a big believer in 'coincidence clustering' especially in movies.....and Star Wars is particularly laden with intriguing metaphoric possibilities. Movies are most effective tools for human conditioning.

It's getting harder and harder these days to find geneticists who believe in evolution......as the string of coincidences required for life to self organize even on a cellular level are staggering.....much less, to self-write a highly complex and coherent code to the level of human kind.

It has been estimated that insect brains are still more complex than today's $1000 desktop computers.

Heady stuff.

[ken_behrendt]

I tend to believe in the reality of adaptive evolution. As the late Dr. Carl Sagan once said on his Cosmos television series, "The secret of evolution is TIME". Many of the statistical arguements used against evolution usually begin by assuming that one starts with a "soup" of nucleotides and then go on to show that the mathematical probability of assembling a complete organism's genome from it, even a microscopic one, are virtually impossible.

But, I do not think that is how the evolutionary process works at all. To produce the enormous diversity of life that now inhabits our planet, it must have proceeded by very small, but PROBABLE, steps over the course of BILLIONS of years. When, perhaps, one out of a thousand TINY genetic mutations tended to enhance survival of an organism, then that mutation was passed on to the descendents offspring and so on down the immensely long corridors of time until we observe what we see on Earth now.

I do not have a problem with evolution, but many fundamentalists do. They see it as totally incompatible with the Judeo/Christian Bible.

Actually, from reading Genesis, I am always very impressed that the order in which the species are "brought forth" there almost exactly matches what evolutionary theory says happened! So, I think that there is a compromise possible that can satisfy both creationists and evolutionists. Simply assume that God did create life in the universe, BUT, he used EVOLUTIONARY processes to do it. Some might say that this puts a limit on God and that He does not need evolution...He could do it in a flash whenever He wanted. IF God is real and omnipotent, then that would certainly be true. However, He could also CHOOSE to create life in any way He saw fit...even with evolution! If one chooses to believe that the "cause" behind evolution was God, then fine...and, if one chooses to believe that evolution is some sort of natural spontaneous property of matter, then fine for that person. IF there is a God, it won't really matter much what one chooses to believe or not believe about the nature of life in our universe because it will not change what happened one bit.

This matter of evolution is much in the news here in the USA of late. I suspect that there is more behind the "debate" then meets the eye. It seems like the forces behind the debate are locked into some sort of contest to see who's belief system will dominate. I say we can peacefully and permanently end the debate with the compromise I outlined above.

I think you are quite right...movies can have a tremenous impact on the values people adopt and their view of the world and their fellow human beings. If a film just accurately mirrors present reality and stimulates people to think about it, then that is probably a good thing. If, however, a film creates a false reality that is intended to manipulate peoples' emotions, thoughts, and opinions about some subject, then that film should be viewed with some caution. We have to be careful about what kind of "information" we invite into our brains. I have, in my life, seen many people that accepted false information as truth and were led astray by it...

ken

[grim]

"Take it easy, kid. It's just a movie"

---Ham Salad, "Hardware Wars"

[grim]

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/hardware_wars

[winkle]

or mabe he gave us a hint about weights on opposite sides of the wheel......try this a u shaped bracket .....pipe shaped weight....with a hole drilled side to side one end....in sert bracket through weight ......attach the u bracket to edge of wheel with one side of bracket about 40 degrees lower than the other......fix in pairs......one to swing right another one to swing left.......need stops to keep them from swinging to far in...... put eight sets around wheel .....watch wheel run

hay guys in this setup the weight at the 2:00 position moves out from the rim in a twisting or screwing motion ......that is the vortice motion JB spoke of.........weights also act as pendulum but swing to the side ...not in line with the wheel

[Silver Eyes]

he

http://www.StoreWars.org

[jtolan]

... "The secret of evolution is TIME".

Impossibilities never happen in a billion years, no, not even in an infinity of TIME. By the way, “projecting” back only a few million years, our sun would have engulfed the earth (its radiating matter away so it was bigger in the past, more gravity, etc), so life would of never been possible on earth, NO EARTH !

Many of the statistical arguments used against evolution usually begin by assuming that one starts with a "soup" of nucleotides and then go on to show that the mathematical probability of assembling a complete organism's genome from it, even a microscopic one, are virtually impossible.

I’ve looked at the experiment done by Miller-Urey in 1953, and they showed they can produce some simple amino acids, hence they said “LIFE”. Creating some basic building blocks is not LIFE; it’s comparable to creating a bolt, and shouting I CREATED A FACTORY!!!

I donÂ’t know if anyone has pondered what life really is, but it has two components to it:

1) First of all, life is a complex ordered STRUCUTRE OF MATERIALS, which can never be assembled by random jiggling molecules in a “soup” (its like saying I’m going to put some iron ore and some plastic chips and wires and silicon in a big box and jiggle it and add some heat and wait till I get a computer. It doesn't have to be turned ON, oh no, just assembled, just the STRUCTURE. WHAT IMPOSSIBILITY !!! Why? BECAUSE ORDER IS NEEDED TO ASSEMBLE SOMETHING ORDERED and STRUCTURED. And RAW nature is DISORDERED in its approach. On an assembly line you can’t have some guy swinging a hammer randomly, nothing gets done, which leads to the next point.

2) More then life being a structure, it is an organic ENGINE IN MOTION, a factory if you will. It moves, changes, adapts, repairs, multiplies, etc... You see, to get an engine going you need, gasoline, in the right place (in the fuel system, not in the oil pan) you need sparks, in the chambers AT THE RIGHT TIME! Timing is the key to life! I heard that scientists were able to take apart a cell and then put it back together, so that it looked exactly like before. However, there was one major difference between it and another one like it that was never tampered with. One moved the other did not, it was DEAD!!! LIFE IS AN ORGANIC DYANMIC ENGINE; if you break the timing you KILL it.
Probability and randomness will never, ever, ever produce even the structure required, let alone the complex timing, in a zillion times million upon billion of years, because its probability is ZERO!

Anybody who thinks it can be done is quite unscientific in his/her thinking, to put it nicely.

But, I do not think that is how the evolutionary process works at all. To produce the enormous diversity of life that now inhabits our planet, it must have proceeded by very small, but PROBABLE, steps over the course of BILLIONS of years.

So you want to take a onetime miracle (creation) and spread it out over time in little creative miracles. I suppose God could have done it that way if he chose to. Why not! But and interesting fact to point out is, to jump from one specie to the next takes a giant leap, in genetic codes etc. Raw nature forces causing mutations donÂ’t seem to be doing it (assuming you started with a single cell by some MIRACLE, and some how it had a DIRECTIVE TO MULTIPLY so mutations can express themselves)

When, perhaps, one out of a thousand TINY genetic mutations tended to enhance survival of an organism, then that mutation was passed on to the descendents offspring and so on down the immensely long corridors of time until we observe what we see on Earth now.

Mutations are detrimental not helpful, they don’t get passed on. Nature SELECTS THEM OUT. Natural selection, or adaptability is not EVOLUTION, it’s proof to the amazement of life!! “Odd” and mutated looking people usually have a hard time finding mates (Chernobyl accident victims for example, how tragic). Also, Life is a system of systems upon systems. They come in groups, Attack one and you can’t live. Take out your heart and you’re dead. Put out your eyes, and you might fall off a cliff (if you’re too curious) Be the first mammal to develop a penis and you can’t multiply, LOL , just kidding, had to throw that in for fun :)

I do not have a problem with evolution, but many fundamentalists do. They see it as totally incompatible with the Judeo/Christian Bible.

I have a big problem with the evolution sugestion and it’s very incompatible with the Judeo/Christian Bible, to say the least. Christians that claim to believe in “Evolution” and Creation don’t fully understand what is at stake. You can’t claim to be a Christian, which means follower of Christ, and not listen to his words, or believe them, It’s an oxymoron.

Listen to these Biblical passages:

(John 1-5)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Actually, from reading Genesis, I am always very impressed that the order in which the species are "brought forth" there almost exactly matches what evolutionary theory says happened!

God was even smarter then we think. The order of the creation account in Genesis actually reinforces a LITERAL week of creation!! Plants can live a night without sunlight light, mine did last night, no problem, but not a THOUSAND YEARS!, as some modern day “Christians” tend to believe (a day for a thousand year principle) What a beautiful built in proof for a LITERAL CREATION WEEK!!!

Also, have you heard of the physicist (Robert V. Gentry, Nature 252 (Dec. 13, 1974), pp. 564-566; Annual Review of Nuclear Science 23 (Dec. 1973)) that worked at Los Alamos at one time and discovered "polonium radiation halos" in granite, or special concentric markings left around a radioactive speck traped in granite, much like a specific ring patern in trees. By the way, granite is the basic rock of our earth. The radiation imprints, that can only form if the rock cooled fast, as in less the Â….. MINUTES !!! Nobody has been able to answer his claims properly. Very interesting!! Also, native granite has crystals and grain pattern in it that can not be duplicated by melting the granite and then allowing it to re-crystallize!. Is that another proof that intelligence put it there, or what!!!

So, I think that there is a compromise possible that can satisfy both creationists and evolutionists. Simply assume that God did create life in the universe, BUT, he used EVOLUTIONARY processes to do it.

If you believe God, you must believe EVERYTHING he says, no compromise is possible. I donÂ’t need to compromise with people who donÂ’t use their brains and accept absurdities. You canÂ’t have it both ways. Evolutionism is not even a science its speculation and fairy tales.

Studying rocks, fossils, animals and their behavior, cells, biology, astronomy, etc, now that’s science, you can make observations, but making up “theories” about how we got here, that’s speculation!!! A theory is a hypothesis that’s proved in an experiment, nobody has proved the EVOLUTIONARY HYPOTHISIS, nor can they, they don’t have the time to wait around to see if it happens again, or access to a planet to experiment on that’s much like earth use to be (maybe in the future), but then again we don’t know what earth was like in the past, so that’s an assumption. They’re stuck! Its assumptions upon assumptions upon a big absurdity and more absurdities, much like the hierarchy of life, except it’s the hierarchy of loonies!!

Some might say that this puts a limit on God and that He does not need evolution...He could do it in a flash whenever He wanted. IF God is real and omnipotent, then that would certainly be true. However, He could also CHOOSE to create life in any way He saw fit...even with evolution!

Very true, But he didn’t, that's a fact. Why speculate when we have an answer? Is it lack of faith in GOD word? It’s exactly what it is. Traditional evolutionist are not satisfied with the bible account, they exclude God from their thinking, so obviously they need an alternate theory to explain what the heck they’re doing here. How lame of a theory! Only fools turn to ideas of coming out of monkeys, with no purpose under the sun, and eternal death with any purpose under heaven. How depressing!! If they only knew the hope and courage that true knowledge of God brings. Blissful eternal life, and a GOD full of LOVE who sacrificed himself so that we “might have life and that more abundantly”!

Â…IF there is a God Â…,

Everybody believes in a “God” whether they admit it or not, it’s a question of how powerful your God is. In its simples form, God could be YOU!! You take no orders from anybody and do what you want. It could be your Dad or Mom who created you and whose rules you have to obey. It could be the enforcers of justice in your country, your president perhaps. But the simple minded stop short of that, they don’t open their eyes and gaze into the stars and let those mental wheels turn. Could there be life on other planets if there is life here? Could it be possible that extraterestrial life created me? They don’t open their eyes and really ponder what life is; they don’t read and ponder a “historical” manual with prophecies which PREDICTS the future and has the markings of the ALMIGHTY all over it. A book that spanned thousands of years writen by a number of people under the same "supernatural" influence as can plainly be examined if one chooses. They don’t wonder about “miracles” and glimpses of “supernatural” around us. But when their life is in danger, they cry out “GOD SAVE ME” This cry is built in folks, he built it in. In times of need common sense floods back into our brains, as if for the last time.

IF there is a God, it won't really matter much what one chooses to believe or not believe about the nature of life in our universe because it will not change what happened one bit.

I won’t change what happened, but it will change what happens! God is not a passive being at sleep. Oh no! He has expectations. There is a war going on, much like in Star Wars. The greatest Controversy in the Universe AND THE ONLY ONE. God is dealing with the rebelion as we speak, and once he is done with it, “sin shall never rise up again a second time…” says the Bible.

Is it important to belive then? Oh yes, eternal life and death is on the line.

Matthew 7:13
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”

Is belief in a literal creation important for a Christian?

EXODUS 20:8,
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. “

If you donÂ’t believe creation you wonÂ’t believe the commandment.

By the way, have you ever thought of this:
A year is demarked by the earth going once around the sun
A month by the moon cycle.
A day by the rotation of the earth around its axis.
But why do we have a SEVEN DAY WEEK? Nothing in nature or in the stars to point too. IT IS A LEGACY OF CREATION! The French during their French revolution upholding THE GOD OF REASON, tried to change the week to a TEN day week. What happened? People broke down, couldnÂ’t do it. So back they went to a seven day week. I belive in the metric system, very logical, but sorry seven day cycle!!

This matter of evolution is much in the news here in the USA of late.

Yes it is, my view is, if we teach one explanation, it is bias not to teach another explanation, especially when this nation was based on Christian principles and a lot of people believe in Creation by God. On the other hand I donÂ’t want religion IMPOSED ON PEOPLE. Our nation was founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION. We welcome Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, etc. The land of religious freedom!!! May God bless America!!!

(Also, I donÂ’t need to pray in public if it offends others, I can pray in my head just fine, so no I donÂ’t support prayer in public schools, also, I donÂ’t support abortion legislation either, itÂ’s not for our Government to tell us what to do with our own bodies, I happen to think it might be wrong to abort an unborn baby under most circumstances, but thatÂ’s for me and my wife and our conscience to work out, I donÂ’t need man made laws. ItÂ’s nobody elseÂ’s business! If you care for someone, then go tell them yourself, but donÂ’t run to the government to lobby you views on life)

I think you are quite right...movies can have a tremendous impact on the values people adopt and their view of the world and their fellow human beings. If a film just accurately mirrors present reality and stimulates people to think about it, then that is probably a good thing. If, however, a film creates a false reality that is intended to manipulate peoples' emotions, thoughts, and opinions about some subject, then that film should be viewed with some caution. We have to be careful about what kind of "information" we invite into our brains. I have, in my life, seen many people that accepted false information as truth and were led astray by it...

Amen to that !!!

[ovyyus]

IMO, long religious mumbo-jumbo rants should be relegated to the "Off-Topic" area of the board. WTF does this pulpit pushing garbage have to do with Bessler's secret?

Better still, take it here http://www.talkorigins.org

[jim_mich]

There is a place for everything under heaven. This forum is not the place for religious theories. Please take these type of posts elsewhere.



Golly, as soon as I posted this they all disappeared?

[Silver Eyes]

>There is a place for everything under heaven. This forum is not the place for religious theories. Please take these type of posts elsewhere.



Golly, as soon as I posted this they all disappeared?

Huh, they are all on the other page Jim.

[jim_mich]

Of course they're on the other page. I was just trying a little humor.

[Silver Eyes]

What are you asking me for?! I was asking YOU!

Third Base.

[Techstuf]

"A little thread diversion now and then.....is relished by the wisest men."


Very good points Jtolan. And parallel to the Bessler subject on various levels. I suppose that if evolutionists believe that a single cell, in all it's complex glory can chance itself into existence and then follow that act up with a googleplex squared of random, chance upgrades......then I suppose, that somewhere...somehow.....right now perhaps, a twin of Bessler's rotary gravity transduction device is grunting it's little old self into being.


All it needs is time.......


I mean, according to institutional science......we all qualify as a Besslerian cult the way it is, and for some of you, he meets their definition of a messiah. To them, the defensive posturing over the occasional 'religious ranting' which 'springs up' on the forum much less frequently than in Bessler's own writings, sounds like the juvenile clanging of black pots and kettles.

Of course, as a 'religious zealot' myself, sometimes all of that pseudo science Bessler talk is offensive to my finer sensibilities.....but then my skin is a bit thicker than some.....my tolerance level a bit stretched thanks, I guess, to....time.


And YAHWEH bless Bill's heart.....he means well, in his irascible, cantankerous way.


Like it or not, in this backward world's eyes.....we faith driven lot have more in common than some might care to realize.

;^)



Peace,


TS