Fletcher's Wheel - Ingenuity verses Entropy

[Fletcher]

I said in other threads that I thought I had found something interesting.

See the pics & the wm2d file to see what I mean.

The RBGS in pendulum form has the same MOI regardless of where the sliding mass is anchored on the horizontal.

Obviously the the pendulum pivot circles around the CoR - the mass located on the RBGS follows a different path, at one time farther away than the other from the actual CoR for the pendulum.

You might expect the location of the mass & its distance from the CoR to effect the MOI of the pendulum, wouldn't you ?

In normal mass placements the farther from the CoR the greater the MOI.

[Dunesbury]

Please see attached my understanding of your diagram.

Your figure 3 I believe balances, and in the additional figure, 3.5 : I believe there is reverse torque. Correct?

Wouldn't there be reverse torque between your diagrams 5, 6 and 1, when driver mass is outside red and blue lines? While coasting from bdc to tdc?

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

To many acronyms for this old codger, I am confident there are Newbies out there with the same problem.

RBGS ?
CoR ?
MOI ?

[Fletcher]

RBGS - Roberval Balance Gearing System (coined by me)
CoR - Center of Rotation
MOI - Moment of Inertia

The last two are commnly used in many threads Ralph, & context usually gives a hint ;7)

[Grimer]

Quite right Jim.

A True PMM = an IMM.

An IMM is not necessarily a True PMM.

My contention is that imbalance [seeking gravitational equilibrium], using a single mechanism, drives the machine into motion thru half a rotation in the most simple design, thus gaining momentum & KE whilst losing PE i.e. CoM/CG is lowered to a position of least Potential Energy - this is the engine metaphor & one that we are all familiar with.

The Prime Mover structure & arrangement acts as a Mechanical Switch allowing a change from a state of imbalance & lowered CG to another state of complete wheel balance [instantaneous raised 'effective CG'] thru another half rotation whereafter momentum coasts the wheel to allow the switching to occur again & complete & repeat the cycle.

Cumulatively, in this one mech [cross bar] proposal, the wheel accelerates, then coasts, then accelerates, etc, gaining momentum & KE, to be bled off via various methods [which are unimportant] to do Work.

You could call it "Controlled Real & Virtual CG Displacement".

Good idea. ;-)

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Fletcher,

the same counterbalances methods can also be used in driven systems, to counter the negative shift of the Center of Gravity when weighted levers using gravity to apply a leverage torque force to drive generators and alike, wherein the negative shift of the Center of Gravity is equal to the load.

So by using the lever systems on one side of the wheel and a number of counterbalance measures on the other side of the wheel a device using this system can become 200 percent efficient, and even higher if gear balance, and Center of Gravity balances are used.

But when looking at these counter weight systems for out of balance wheels, it seems to me that you can only half the height for width problem, and not fix it, with that said any improvement is a step in the right direction.

[Tarsier79]

Dunes, when the roverbial ballance gear is locked, the extra distance from centre becomes an illusion of sorts.

Fletcher, in all cases I have looked at, the change in MOI directly relates to the KE. I'm not sure swapping from OB to RB will break this relationship.

IMO, the RAR proposed using your original theory in its design. In both designs, engaging the RB reduces the change in PE to equal the shifting of the theoretical pivot point (see Besslers demonstration 555v) if you made the RB mechanism from linkages instead of gears.

I have tried, but the design is beyond me, to arrange a RB so it displaces water, (like Rajs design http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=14611 ) and rolls, but removing the earth linkage is the major issue.

[Fletcher]

Dunes, when the roverbial ballance gear is locked, the extra distance from centre becomes an illusion of sorts.

Yes, what I coined Controlled Real & Virtual CG Displacement [CRAVD, just for Ralph] - actually it's quite well known by many of us who have looked into Roberval Balances [RB].

Fletcher, in all cases I have looked at, the change in MOI directly relates to the KE. I'm not sure swapping from OB to RB will break this relationship.

Yes, it's a proof of sorts about symmetry between rotational MOI & RKe, which pequaide couldn't seem to grasp - the greater the MOI the more energy or force must be inputted to achieve a certain RPM, & they directly correlate - if a symmetry break could be mechanically engineered then it just might be by being able to manipulate CRAVD.

IMO, the RAR proposed using your original theory in its design. In both designs, engaging the RB reduces the change in PE to equal the shifting of the theoretical pivot point (see Besslers demonstration 555v) if you made the RB mechanism from linkages instead of gears.

I was well aware of the RAR similarities - I'll have to think about what you said here some more - perhaps a pic would help me see what you mean sooner ? Theory & practical say so far no one has found the 'trick' that allows Ke & momentum to be greater than Pe input etc.

I have tried, but the design is beyond me, to arrange a RB so it displaces water, (like Rajs design http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=14611 ) and rolls, but removing the earth linkage is the major issue.

Yep, you need an artificial horizon to work from, otherwise it is not a RB anymore.

................................

My questions related to the MOI of the RBGS pendulums - they all have the same MOI & therefore the same Ke for the same Pe loss, regardless of the position of the red sliding mass which is anchored in these sims.

My answer is that that is to be expected, because of the way a RB works - forces are equalized around the pivot, so no matter where the drive mass is it 'feels' like it is located at the pivot, even though it phyisically & visually is not.

Can we make use of this CRAVD to increase Ke & momentum for a lesser amount of lost Pe ?

If the anchor is released then the driver can move at will, or be controlled to move when we want using Cf's [sorry CC & Dwayne].

[bluesgtr44]

It starts to turn, it's a dynamic system. If there is a way to start the shift at the 3.5 position and carry it for to about the 7.5 position....it would be fairly representative of what we could expect from this type of set up. Other than that, yeah....it's not going to continue on around. We have to deal with the dynamic aspect and that happens when the system starts to move. Basically, right away!

[FunWithGravity2]

Thank you for an interesting thread gentleman. Great dsicussion.

Dave

Been to busy lately, but enjoy stopping by to see some here having productive polite conversation,hope all is well.
Cheers
Dave

[Unbalanced]

I second FWG2 that it is great to see the forum back on track. Thanks Fletcher for posting this interesting concept.

I do not agree with the idea that there most likely has to be a period where-in each mechanism experiences a period of coasting and that with numerous mechanisms there would always be at least one that is applying a positive force. Rather I envision a scenario that by its design can not find equilibrium, or can not stop tipping over

Though I haven't struck on the exact concept yet, I feel as though there is the possibility that an arrangement could exist that remains continuously unstable once tipped off a stationary position. This could be a single weight that continues to try to fall but because of the rotation of the wheel is unable to loose PE but still imparts it's KE. That is the key to PM imparting KE without losing PE. Similar to (but only in thought) to a ball rolling down a conveyor belt but not losing altitude.

Were I one of the witnesses to Bessler's demonstrations, I would have been interested in ascertaining whether the wheel was able to be "parked" in any
degree of rotation or whether perhaps there were only certain points through 360 degrees where it would stop. In other words if I was able to bring the wheel to a rest by grabbing it, would it continue to roll one way or the other a few degrees before actually parking once I let go of it.

Perhaps we can find a way to increase the effect of gravity on a devise in a similar manner that the DDWFTTW is able travel faster than the force (wind) that is driving it.

I do not feel as though I have the ingenuity currently to defeat entropy with this particular configuration.

[Fletcher]

Thanks for your inputs Dave & Curtis.

Funnily enough, I have just such an idea Curtis - we think alike on that one - the key seems to be how to keep a wheel constantly OOB - we know many ways of temporary imbalance - MT shows hundreds - the secret, if there was one, would be to lift weights back to neutral torque position after the drive (wheel acceleration) phase but before the back torque phase - perhaps after that there is the possibility for a coasting phase/mode - one thing I know is that it'd be mighty handy to have a little mass cause the lifting of a very large mass, especially if it could do it quickly & strongly, & pneumatics come to mind as that available force because ambient air pressure can do the work required.

Soon I'm going to go to the next stage of my discussion - I'll let the penny drop a little now.

I showed the Roberval Balance Gearing System [RBGS] & how it can keep a cross bar horizontal at all times - I introduced the concept of a sliding (driving) mass being able to traverse laterally back & forth using Cf's (inertial forces) - I called it a SWITCH analogue.

It could also be looked upon as a PISTON - this is important I think & I'll explain why later.

It comes back to what Kaine brought up again recently, Besslers experience with organs, air guns, & bellows (which I've also previously looked into) - pneumatics in general I think are important.

I explain later but first I just want to put out there that we have a PISTON, if we want to use it that way - it can also function as a switch as well.

I'll come back with some more sims & pics to see how this piston might work, in simple terms.

Perhaps together we will be able to nut out something viable or at least interesting & not just gravity imbalance.

[daxwc]

How old is the piston invention?

[daxwc]

http://www.eoht.info/page/Piston+and+cylinder
Denis Papin’s name shows up again as well as Robert Boyle and Robert Hooke.

[Fletcher]

How old is the piston invention?

Dax .. Bessler built high powered air guns [pistons] - pneumatics works both ways - you can pump up pressure behind a piston OR you can cause a partial vacuum [air evacuation] in front of a piston, in which case the ambient air pressure will do the work for you.

In this case I'm suggesting that the sliding driver piston could say partially evacuate a bellows structure for example, or at least its inertia in movement (when connected by air lines) cause a drop in pressure on one side of a bellows - then greater ambient pressure does the work.