Poss. Symmetry Break?
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?
In the attempt to elucidate exactly what's going on with this apparent I/O asymmetry, below are some variations on the original 'discs1.3' test.
All are using 10 kg 500 mm radius discs.
Each sim begins with them disconnected from eachother, then, after 500 milliseconds, the transmission between them is activated, equalising the system momentum and energy between them.
A chain and sprocket set is again used as the transmission system, however the same results can be obtained using any functionally equivalent transmission system (gears, drive belts etc.).
Note also that the sprockets are opposingly-geared - a CW torque on one is a CCW torque on the other.
As such, even though the following sim shows that both momentums are of the same sign, when the transmission engages after 500 ms, the two momentums will be set against one another, as equal opposites.
So although the net system momentum reads as positive, it's actually zero... which on the one hand supports Wubbly's contention, while also demonstrating the ambiguity (or conditionality) of the situation...
...this is an intriguing result - net momentum was zero all along, but then, for precisely the same reasons, so was net energy!
So neither appear to have been conserved, here.
However, there are reasons for doubt:
1) shouldn't they simply bounce off one another, conserving both P and KE? I was recently playing with simple linear collisions, and again thought i was seeing a non-dissipative loss.. but then Fletcher pointed out that friction was being simulated, and upon disabling it the system oscillated indefinitely.
2) per my previous semi-cogent meanderings, perhaps we could adopt the view that work has been performed in changing the mass's speeds... so we at least have a result, if not any remaining energy.. a displacement occurred, even though the 'before' and 'after' states are basically indistiguishable. This is of course simply rationalising the apparent energy destruction, not getting rid of it..
Despite my misgivings re. point (1), i have tried disabling friction for the discs, and setting their elasticity to "1" - there's also no friction applied to the transmission by the sim - and yet the result persists.
If point (2) is the only remaining conclusion, then destroying momentum and energy is as trivial as colliding two counter-rotating discs. If they were uniform discs, or else, each turned a full 360°, there'd be no evidence afterwards that the missing energy ever existed...
Before anyone rushes to conclusions, i'm gonna post a couple more followup tests, which might further inform our first impressions..
All are using 10 kg 500 mm radius discs.
Each sim begins with them disconnected from eachother, then, after 500 milliseconds, the transmission between them is activated, equalising the system momentum and energy between them.
A chain and sprocket set is again used as the transmission system, however the same results can be obtained using any functionally equivalent transmission system (gears, drive belts etc.).
Note also that the sprockets are opposingly-geared - a CW torque on one is a CCW torque on the other.
As such, even though the following sim shows that both momentums are of the same sign, when the transmission engages after 500 ms, the two momentums will be set against one another, as equal opposites.
So although the net system momentum reads as positive, it's actually zero... which on the one hand supports Wubbly's contention, while also demonstrating the ambiguity (or conditionality) of the situation...
...this is an intriguing result - net momentum was zero all along, but then, for precisely the same reasons, so was net energy!
So neither appear to have been conserved, here.
However, there are reasons for doubt:
1) shouldn't they simply bounce off one another, conserving both P and KE? I was recently playing with simple linear collisions, and again thought i was seeing a non-dissipative loss.. but then Fletcher pointed out that friction was being simulated, and upon disabling it the system oscillated indefinitely.
2) per my previous semi-cogent meanderings, perhaps we could adopt the view that work has been performed in changing the mass's speeds... so we at least have a result, if not any remaining energy.. a displacement occurred, even though the 'before' and 'after' states are basically indistiguishable. This is of course simply rationalising the apparent energy destruction, not getting rid of it..
Despite my misgivings re. point (1), i have tried disabling friction for the discs, and setting their elasticity to "1" - there's also no friction applied to the transmission by the sim - and yet the result persists.
If point (2) is the only remaining conclusion, then destroying momentum and energy is as trivial as colliding two counter-rotating discs. If they were uniform discs, or else, each turned a full 360°, there'd be no evidence afterwards that the missing energy ever existed...
Before anyone rushes to conclusions, i'm gonna post a couple more followup tests, which might further inform our first impressions..
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This next test is identical to the last, except the red disc begins with double the momentum:
...and finally, that last test is repeated, but with the sign of the red disc flipped:
As you can see, net P and KE are once again not conserved in the former case, while in the latter, P is conserved, and only 0.959 J is 'destroyed'.
So my question to others is, what light do these tests throw on this issue - are we really looking at a genuine non-dissipative loss mechanism, or is there some better (law-abiding) explanation, or perhaps flaws in the methodology / interpretation etc.?
Respectfully acknowledging that 'energy destroying experiments' may seem the witterings of a tragically stagnated pastime, if these systems are indeed under-unity then closer examination is warranted - even if the asymmetry's irreversible, understanding precisely why could be a valuable lesson, as well as closure on a deceptively simple anomaly..
If anyone has questions or would like to see a variation or other specific configuration tested, fire away..
...and finally, that last test is repeated, but with the sign of the red disc flipped:
As you can see, net P and KE are once again not conserved in the former case, while in the latter, P is conserved, and only 0.959 J is 'destroyed'.
So my question to others is, what light do these tests throw on this issue - are we really looking at a genuine non-dissipative loss mechanism, or is there some better (law-abiding) explanation, or perhaps flaws in the methodology / interpretation etc.?
Respectfully acknowledging that 'energy destroying experiments' may seem the witterings of a tragically stagnated pastime, if these systems are indeed under-unity then closer examination is warranted - even if the asymmetry's irreversible, understanding precisely why could be a valuable lesson, as well as closure on a deceptively simple anomaly..
If anyone has questions or would like to see a variation or other specific configuration tested, fire away..
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If we assume that the equal opposing discs should, rather, simply bounce off one another instead of mutually cancelling their KE, then we should presumably apply that same logic to the second test, and yet there, that same assumption would give us an inconsistent prediction.. since they part-cancel, and part-add.
Which suggests we're seeing an accurate result when they fully cancel.
ETA: also, bear in mind (eek!) that in the final test, all the momentum is conserved, yet we're still down almost a Joule - which either precludes the possibility that any momentum (and thus energy) was transferred to heat, or else implies that more momentum was created equal to that dissipated.
Either way, the momentums have summed cumulatively, AKA additively, constructively... while the net KE has a deficit.
This seems to confirm that the collisions are indeed fully elastic - that the equal opposing discs would bounce off one another, if that's what they were supposed to do.. but that momentum, and thus KE, can interact destructively as well as constructively.. and hence all three sets of results are self-consistent and accurate.
Which suggests we're seeing an accurate result when they fully cancel.
ETA: also, bear in mind (eek!) that in the final test, all the momentum is conserved, yet we're still down almost a Joule - which either precludes the possibility that any momentum (and thus energy) was transferred to heat, or else implies that more momentum was created equal to that dissipated.
Either way, the momentums have summed cumulatively, AKA additively, constructively... while the net KE has a deficit.
This seems to confirm that the collisions are indeed fully elastic - that the equal opposing discs would bounce off one another, if that's what they were supposed to do.. but that momentum, and thus KE, can interact destructively as well as constructively.. and hence all three sets of results are self-consistent and accurate.
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No major steps forward yet, although i've realised that the discs can't "bounce off one another" because they're rigidly meshed as if they're a single mass.
This is true if they're connected as or by gears, or by drive chain / belt, or if one disc is dropped onto another on the same vertical shaft, etc.
So there has to be an instantaneous impact between them, and such an impact has to dissipate energy, surely?
Since no friction is being applied in the simulation, maybe the loss only seems non-dissipative, even though the result's not truly physical..?
Yet this is at odds with the fact that we can apparently retain all of our momentum, while still 'destroying' energy - again, each disc ends up with the correct amount of energy for its given momentum, all of which remains conserved and active in the system, yet that 'correct' amount is precisely half the original - the other half doesn't need 'dissipating' since it's been divided out of exsistence into a second identical MoI.
I'm SO confused.. i want this to be real, but that's confirmation bias, yet the only thing that could disprove the result would be calorimetry - or else zero-friction materials.
And remember, the apparent destruction of half our system energy ain't even the half of it - we can apparently destroy all of our P and KE, too.
So even if dissipative friction seemed a possible explanation for the first and second results above, it can't explain the third, in which all of the momentum remains, yet a Joule is still missing.
A consistent null hypothesis thus doesn't seem to be available. The only consistent implication on the table appears to be non-dissipative losses, AKA an asymmetric interaction, AKA under-unity..
This is true if they're connected as or by gears, or by drive chain / belt, or if one disc is dropped onto another on the same vertical shaft, etc.
So there has to be an instantaneous impact between them, and such an impact has to dissipate energy, surely?
Since no friction is being applied in the simulation, maybe the loss only seems non-dissipative, even though the result's not truly physical..?
Yet this is at odds with the fact that we can apparently retain all of our momentum, while still 'destroying' energy - again, each disc ends up with the correct amount of energy for its given momentum, all of which remains conserved and active in the system, yet that 'correct' amount is precisely half the original - the other half doesn't need 'dissipating' since it's been divided out of exsistence into a second identical MoI.
I'm SO confused.. i want this to be real, but that's confirmation bias, yet the only thing that could disprove the result would be calorimetry - or else zero-friction materials.
And remember, the apparent destruction of half our system energy ain't even the half of it - we can apparently destroy all of our P and KE, too.
So even if dissipative friction seemed a possible explanation for the first and second results above, it can't explain the third, in which all of the momentum remains, yet a Joule is still missing.
A consistent null hypothesis thus doesn't seem to be available. The only consistent implication on the table appears to be non-dissipative losses, AKA an asymmetric interaction, AKA under-unity..
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?
You need to "bleed off" the energy of the impact, preferably in the direction of rotation (great if you can do that ;-), not opposite to the direction of rotation (never works), or a third way, which is perpendicular to rotation (i.e. in a line from the axle to the rim.) I'd try to expend the energy toward the axle, i.e. 'inward'. A fourth way would be parallel with the axle, but I haven't looked into the difficulties with that... ;-)
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
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This is exactly why Scott set up this forum with the ability to store images and documents, so that they will remain here as long as the forum exists. So why do you post images from other servers, which might not exist in a few years down the road?MrVibrating wrote:But suddenly all my PostImage images have stopped imaging.
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Because i'm guilty of not having donated to this forum yet, and these animated gifs are up to a mb each.. so i'm already taking libs..
Gonna switch to imgsafe.org i think - i started the other thread on PhysicsForums using the imgsafe server, no bites yet but it's only been up a few hours. Will report back any developments here.
Gonna switch to imgsafe.org i think - i started the other thread on PhysicsForums using the imgsafe server, no bites yet but it's only been up a few hours. Will report back any developments here.
So far, your animated GIF images have been smaller than 300 kilobytes. The forum limit is 512 kilobytes each, so I don't see any problem loading them here on the forum. There is no requirement for you to donate. I'm sure, donations help Scott, but donations are not a requirement.
If you upload your files to the forum, then we initially see only a small thumbnail image, which is a small number of data bytes. But by you linking to an off-forum website, you force each member's browser to download your full animated GIF file. I don't have unlimited internet. I pay for each gigabyte of data that I use. So, by you trying to save the forum some data, you are forcing an increase of my data usage.
I'm assuming you never really stopped to think about this.
If you upload your files to the forum, then we initially see only a small thumbnail image, which is a small number of data bytes. But by you linking to an off-forum website, you force each member's browser to download your full animated GIF file. I don't have unlimited internet. I pay for each gigabyte of data that I use. So, by you trying to save the forum some data, you are forcing an increase of my data usage.
I'm assuming you never really stopped to think about this.
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Seeking clarification on a 'proper' physics forum went predictably badly, ended up unsubbing, threads keep getting locked down by the mods LOL..
But fook 'em, it seems patently obvious to me that if the MoI suddenly doubles, the velocity must halve to conserve net momentum, and twice the mass at half the velocity has half as much energy, period. There's neither any requirement nor room for any heating mechanism, the RKE term is simply half angular inertia times velocity squared, friction isn't even a part of the equation, and the situation is functionally identical to the ice-skater effect - extending your limbs causes a drop in RKE precisely because of conservation of momentum, and to bring your MoI back in again requires an input of energy...
..and the same applies with the disc system here - increasing the MoI is trivial, the energy loss is non-reversible and reducing the MoI by braking one disc and transferring its energy back over to the other one can only sum the remaining energy, not multiply it back up to its original value, which can only be restored with the input of further energy.
I know that's not a proper proof and admit that if there's a fundamental logic to all this, i'm still missing it, but the results are there to see for anyone who can make more sense of it than i.
I need to draw a line under the matter so that i can move on to other stuff. What i have established, if further evidence were needed, is that manipulating MoI causes energy asymmetries... and that pseudoskeptics will ALWAYS invoke free heat from nowhere when faced with such a non-dissipative loss, each and every time, without fail.
But fook 'em, it seems patently obvious to me that if the MoI suddenly doubles, the velocity must halve to conserve net momentum, and twice the mass at half the velocity has half as much energy, period. There's neither any requirement nor room for any heating mechanism, the RKE term is simply half angular inertia times velocity squared, friction isn't even a part of the equation, and the situation is functionally identical to the ice-skater effect - extending your limbs causes a drop in RKE precisely because of conservation of momentum, and to bring your MoI back in again requires an input of energy...
..and the same applies with the disc system here - increasing the MoI is trivial, the energy loss is non-reversible and reducing the MoI by braking one disc and transferring its energy back over to the other one can only sum the remaining energy, not multiply it back up to its original value, which can only be restored with the input of further energy.
I know that's not a proper proof and admit that if there's a fundamental logic to all this, i'm still missing it, but the results are there to see for anyone who can make more sense of it than i.
I need to draw a line under the matter so that i can move on to other stuff. What i have established, if further evidence were needed, is that manipulating MoI causes energy asymmetries... and that pseudoskeptics will ALWAYS invoke free heat from nowhere when faced with such a non-dissipative loss, each and every time, without fail.
Last edited by MrVibrating on Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moving swiftly on...
Springs.
Leaf springs, to be precise.
Great way to play with MoI, potentially..
Suppose we have a long thin strip of steel. A big leaf spring.
Stick a weight on each end, and a pivot at the center.
Turn gravity off. If we give the hub a twist, the inertia of the weights will hold them back momentarily, and instead of them moving, we'll be loading the spring instead.
Multiply them around an axle - have say four radial springs, so eight weights in total. Twist the hub and all the weights draw inwards a little as the springs spiral up, then they unfurl and the weights move back outwards as they accelerate. Then they overtake the hub, passing thru their 'straight radial' positions as the springs curl up the other way, drawing the weights back inwards a little.
Simple thought experiment, with a number of interesting effects in play:
- the initial resistance to the applied torque at the hub is a mixture of angular inertia and spring tension
- we're inputting sprung PE as well as RKE, with a large but varying degree of overlap
- MoI varies with the varying radius of the weights, however here, the velocity difference between the hub and weights is also varying, which also affects MoI, and is interfering with the MoI change due to the radial variation
The goal remains the same - to add energy to a system when its MoI is high, then harvest it when MoI is low. Sow at high MoI, reap at low MoI. Simples. The crucial point is that the MoI variation must be passive, or else any such cost must be subsidised by gravity, in whole or in part.
Wolff deduced that the weights seemed to be attached to moveable or elastic armatures, and so the basic concept here concerns the dynamical, rather than purely gravitational, properties of MT 18, and variations upon it.
So an obvious target for an opening salvo would be attempting to load a spring at High MoI, then unload it at lower MoI - something i've tried previously with an MT 142-ish inspiration, without success..
Maybe dropping the spring part-way through the axle between loading and unloading, in a similar vein to MT 25. Or perhaps terminate the inner ends of each spring at the axle, but attached to a crank to vary their radius. Or something. Dunno.
Basically, leaf springs as a means of leveraging MoI variations. That's my current line of enquiry.
Springs.
Leaf springs, to be precise.
Great way to play with MoI, potentially..
Suppose we have a long thin strip of steel. A big leaf spring.
Stick a weight on each end, and a pivot at the center.
Turn gravity off. If we give the hub a twist, the inertia of the weights will hold them back momentarily, and instead of them moving, we'll be loading the spring instead.
Multiply them around an axle - have say four radial springs, so eight weights in total. Twist the hub and all the weights draw inwards a little as the springs spiral up, then they unfurl and the weights move back outwards as they accelerate. Then they overtake the hub, passing thru their 'straight radial' positions as the springs curl up the other way, drawing the weights back inwards a little.
Simple thought experiment, with a number of interesting effects in play:
- the initial resistance to the applied torque at the hub is a mixture of angular inertia and spring tension
- we're inputting sprung PE as well as RKE, with a large but varying degree of overlap
- MoI varies with the varying radius of the weights, however here, the velocity difference between the hub and weights is also varying, which also affects MoI, and is interfering with the MoI change due to the radial variation
The goal remains the same - to add energy to a system when its MoI is high, then harvest it when MoI is low. Sow at high MoI, reap at low MoI. Simples. The crucial point is that the MoI variation must be passive, or else any such cost must be subsidised by gravity, in whole or in part.
Wolff deduced that the weights seemed to be attached to moveable or elastic armatures, and so the basic concept here concerns the dynamical, rather than purely gravitational, properties of MT 18, and variations upon it.
So an obvious target for an opening salvo would be attempting to load a spring at High MoI, then unload it at lower MoI - something i've tried previously with an MT 142-ish inspiration, without success..
Maybe dropping the spring part-way through the axle between loading and unloading, in a similar vein to MT 25. Or perhaps terminate the inner ends of each spring at the axle, but attached to a crank to vary their radius. Or something. Dunno.
Basically, leaf springs as a means of leveraging MoI variations. That's my current line of enquiry.
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?
Been making slow but steady progress, and just want to expend a few lines looking at potential consistencies between Bessler's clues about the exploit, and generating RKE from MoI manipulation.
The quotes here are from John Collins' Apologia; emphases are mine.
Rotation of the wheel causes this internal motion, and in response, it causes further rotation.
Why would he emphasise the obvious fact that matter possesses 'heaviness', unless this was non-trivial to the exploit? Either this is a tacit warning against trying to build with thin air, or perhaps phlogiston, or else he's drawing our attention to 'inertia'. Likely, rotational inertia. And he ends with the phrasing "retain that motion"... as if, to conserve a motion - presumably rotation - and hence a reference to what we now know as "conservation of angular momentum".. in other words, his exploit generates excess angular momentum - adding to the 'retained' motion with more of the same. Thus implying that the form of the gain is angular momentum.
So the system of rising and falling masses - the GPE system - could be any conventional machine.
Such as the stamping mill, or Archimedes screw, or winch, pendulums etc.
Remember that he also says that "in a true PM, everything must necessarily, go around together - there can be nothing involved in it that remains staionary upon the axle." But if his exploit can actually gain further advantage from any applied loads, these external parts are obviously not rotating with the wheel... therefore we can deduce that it is only the prime mover - the mechanism responsible for generating the exploit itself - that is dependent upon rotation. If the machine is to be self contained, then it must also contain an integrated GPE system, and it then follows as a matter of course that these parts must rotate with the prime mover.
But if external loads add further advantage - ie. external GPE systems can leverage the machine's exploit - then this is fully consistent with the exploit being an RKE gain from modulating MoI; all that matters, GPE-wise, is that energy is input when MoI is higher, and then output again when MoI is lower.. and whether these GPE loads are internal or external is purely a design choice.
The context of this revelation is Bessler's reply to Wagner's point that the machine appeared to lack a "fixed point":
This "principle of excess weight" - elsewhere described as "preponderance" - cannot refer to a GPE asymmetry, as precluded previously, - so perhaps what he's really driving at is what we'd understand as "excess torque". The "wheel's own inner force must come into being without external momentum being applied by such devices"... in other words, the exploit generates torque. "It must, simply put, revolve" - because that's what torque does. It's not a torque applied externally, but rather one induced internally! As by modulating MoI to induce a velocity and thus RKE rise! Reducing MoI applies positive torque.. The "own inner force" of a wheel is torque, and his exploit directly induces it.
The "heavy / full" and "empty / light" remark is troubling - does this tally with his description of internal weights swapping between inner and outer postions? If this is a reference to these same weights, and if GPE is, as suspected, incidental to the exploit, then this may simply be playful disingenuity - intended to confound by apparently confirming futile hypotheses re. the possibility of a gravitational asymmetry. IOW deliberately highlighting details that would be deceptively consistent with a gravitational asymmetry, even while agreeing that such a prospect remains impossible.
So maybe these weights swapping between inner and outer positions is simply an incidental property of the internal GPE system, or else maybe it is an intrinsic action of the MoI-modulating mechanism - the core exploit, generating the excess torque.
I continue to explore both possibilities, so just wanted to post up this latest re-reading of familiar clues - as much to persuade myself, as anyone else, that i'm on the right track..
What seems clear to me now is that Bessler is at pains to describe a form of torque induction that is wholly differentiated from an externally-applied torque, such as from a drop weight, spring or flywheel etc. - he's tiptoing around torque induction vs mere torque application. The word "torque" wouldn't be invented for another century, but despite this i believe he's done a good job of describing its nature, and how it is applied, as much as how it is not..
Again, if we take as read his assertion that no other exploit is possible, then the only "extraordinary thing" left that the Toys page could encode is RKE gain from MoI reduction. I still don't fully grasp the puzzle, but its solution seems to converge inevitably on this one consistent resolution of all of the other clues..
The quotes here are from John Collins' Apologia; emphases are mine.
The "movement" in question is thus not necessarily a "rotation", per se, though it causes rotation. So for instance, it could be an oscillating motion, which then drives a rotation via a crank and conrod - or any number of alternative motions. It may be that this mechanism does rotate with the wheel, or may or may not depend upon doing so. All that i deduce from this quotation is that he seems to be differentiating between the "motion" of some internal apparatus, and subsequent rotation of the wheel."The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way that weights applied in accordance with the laws of Perpetual Motion, work, once a small impressed force has caused the commencement of movement, to perpetuate the said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely"
Rotation of the wheel causes this internal motion, and in response, it causes further rotation.
..as opposed to a machine made of non-material, non-heavy substances and parts?"a machine made up of material, therefore heavy, substances and parts, assembled in such a fashion that once it has received an externally-given motive force will never lose it but will continue endlessly without interruption to retain that motion."
Why would he emphasise the obvious fact that matter possesses 'heaviness', unless this was non-trivial to the exploit? Either this is a tacit warning against trying to build with thin air, or perhaps phlogiston, or else he's drawing our attention to 'inertia'. Likely, rotational inertia. And he ends with the phrasing "retain that motion"... as if, to conserve a motion - presumably rotation - and hence a reference to what we now know as "conservation of angular momentum".. in other words, his exploit generates excess angular momentum - adding to the 'retained' motion with more of the same. Thus implying that the form of the gain is angular momentum.
This implies a stunning conclusion, that had previously escaped my notice - i had already surmised that the system of rising and falling weights was incidental to the exploit (which i believe is inertial), but here Bessler seems to be pointing out that the input and output masses don't necessarily need to be mounted onto the wheel at all - including them makes for a nicely self-contained system, but any external input and output loads can be applied to the same effect."since the motive force of the device, which at the moment is only that of a small working model, can be multiplied to an almost infinite degree through combination. Further advantage can be obtained by working the device in conjunction with ordinary machines, and altogether there is no load or burden too great for the machine to face if the working arrangements are properly set up."
So the system of rising and falling masses - the GPE system - could be any conventional machine.
Such as the stamping mill, or Archimedes screw, or winch, pendulums etc.
Remember that he also says that "in a true PM, everything must necessarily, go around together - there can be nothing involved in it that remains staionary upon the axle." But if his exploit can actually gain further advantage from any applied loads, these external parts are obviously not rotating with the wheel... therefore we can deduce that it is only the prime mover - the mechanism responsible for generating the exploit itself - that is dependent upon rotation. If the machine is to be self contained, then it must also contain an integrated GPE system, and it then follows as a matter of course that these parts must rotate with the prime mover.
But if external loads add further advantage - ie. external GPE systems can leverage the machine's exploit - then this is fully consistent with the exploit being an RKE gain from modulating MoI; all that matters, GPE-wise, is that energy is input when MoI is higher, and then output again when MoI is lower.. and whether these GPE loads are internal or external is purely a design choice.
The context of this revelation is Bessler's reply to Wagner's point that the machine appeared to lack a "fixed point":
Wagner is acknowledging that the wheel appears to be statorless, and that such a feature is indeed novel, and perplexing, if not potentially misleadingly-so. And as Wagner's spitroast-inspired contraption demonstrates, a stator can be hidden internally. But to this suggestion Bessler is clearly and unequivocally refuting the use of any stator, hidden or otherwise - going on to add that the exploit actually depends upon rotation, and kind of sarcastically thanking him for tacitly acknowledging that a statorless motor must indeed be anomolous:"The details of the application of the motive power are difficult to
fathom in this machine. Everything seems to be in motion, and
there is no "fixed point" such as one would necessarily expect to
exist where the power is applied. This ingenious arrangement
has obviously misled many people into thinking that Orffyreus'
wheel really is the true Perpetuum Mobile."
And so, reconciling these words with his claim that externally-applied loads (and thus not rotating internally) can add further advantage, we're left to conclude that it is the central exploit that is rotation-dependent, and that it is an RKE gain mechanism, as opposed to say a GPE-varying exploit. It can be harnessed as a GPE gain, or likewise any other form of mechanical work. But gain itself is dependent upon rotation."Thinking, you say! You're still comparing my wheel with yours?
In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go
round together. There can be nothing involved in it which
remains stationary on the axle. From your own words, describing
my wheel, it follows that people must get used to calling it the true
Mobile. Yes, it is PERPETUAL - and you can't take your own
words back. Anyone looking into my wheel would see that the
matter is already settled. Revealed to the world would be the
artistry which Wagner himself calls the Mobile, and which is not
his to reveal."
Wagner is still thinking in terms of GPE. Bessler however is fully aware that GPE is a zero-sum deal. His exploit is NOT gravitational. He's not lifting something when it's light and dropping it when it's heavy. His exploit isn't a form of leverage, or weight attenuation. Input and output GPE's are equal."But I could quote still more of his tract, for he writes at length
about such things as "perpendicular lead weights, cogwheel
drive, and eccentric cranks". And, too, about the hollow spaces
which he intends to fill with lead, in order to give his wheel a
smart momentum, so that it turns with gusto. Jump up and down
with gusto yourself, then, Wagner - then start tearing your hair
out, because you'll soon find, you splendid mechanic, that this is
a nut you can't crack! If one weight is giving an upward impetus,
another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one.
And as for the interior cog mechanism - that will hinder movement
rather than promote it. Oh yes, there'll be a fine clattering, but no
sustained momentum. Banging, rattling, vibrating - that's what
the wheel will be good for - and vexing you as well!
You see, your thoughts are only now tending in directions that
have been second nature to me for ages, and the amount of ink
you've spilt doesn't begin to equate to the great draughts of
knowledge I have drunk.
So flywheels - specifically, angular momentum and inertia - are interesting, but not simply as an energy storage medium."For Wagner sings the praises of
weights and springs, and the sort of fly-wheels to be found in
saw-mills. (However, in Borlach's writings a contrary point of view
is expressed.) But, fly-wheels are not to be sniffed at! Though
anyone who sets about the task of bringing a Mobile to glorious
completion with such devices, is not on the right track at all. For
external wheels, weights etc. - all of this sort of stuff is not the real
thing. The wheel's own inner force must come into being without
external momentum being applied by such devices. It must,
simply put, just revolve, without being wound-up, through the
principle of "excess weight", as I describe in Part I."
This "principle of excess weight" - elsewhere described as "preponderance" - cannot refer to a GPE asymmetry, as precluded previously, - so perhaps what he's really driving at is what we'd understand as "excess torque". The "wheel's own inner force must come into being without external momentum being applied by such devices"... in other words, the exploit generates torque. "It must, simply put, revolve" - because that's what torque does. It's not a torque applied externally, but rather one induced internally! As by modulating MoI to induce a velocity and thus RKE rise! Reducing MoI applies positive torque.. The "own inner force" of a wheel is torque, and his exploit directly induces it.
"Preponderance". He's saying that this trick of inducing torque is the only exploit possible, and that Wagner's attempted criticisms just underscore the validity of this assertion."Even according to the ideas my enemies express in their writings,
my Wheel is the true device, and is indeed, per se, a genuine
Perpetuum Mobile. None better will ever be found upon this
earth, for without the principle that I alone possess, there can be
no real perpetual motion. Whoever seeks another method is
deceiving himself, for my device does not need winding; it runs
according to "preponderance", and turns everything else along
with it; so long as its material shall endure, it will revolve of its
own accord. On one side it is heavy and full; on the other empty
and light, just as it should be. That which hitherto has been
impossible, was vouchsafed to me to discover."
The "heavy / full" and "empty / light" remark is troubling - does this tally with his description of internal weights swapping between inner and outer postions? If this is a reference to these same weights, and if GPE is, as suspected, incidental to the exploit, then this may simply be playful disingenuity - intended to confound by apparently confirming futile hypotheses re. the possibility of a gravitational asymmetry. IOW deliberately highlighting details that would be deceptively consistent with a gravitational asymmetry, even while agreeing that such a prospect remains impossible.
So maybe these weights swapping between inner and outer positions is simply an incidental property of the internal GPE system, or else maybe it is an intrinsic action of the MoI-modulating mechanism - the core exploit, generating the excess torque.
I continue to explore both possibilities, so just wanted to post up this latest re-reading of familiar clues - as much to persuade myself, as anyone else, that i'm on the right track..
What seems clear to me now is that Bessler is at pains to describe a form of torque induction that is wholly differentiated from an externally-applied torque, such as from a drop weight, spring or flywheel etc. - he's tiptoing around torque induction vs mere torque application. The word "torque" wouldn't be invented for another century, but despite this i believe he's done a good job of describing its nature, and how it is applied, as much as how it is not..
Again, if we take as read his assertion that no other exploit is possible, then the only "extraordinary thing" left that the Toys page could encode is RKE gain from MoI reduction. I still don't fully grasp the puzzle, but its solution seems to converge inevitably on this one consistent resolution of all of the other clues..
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?
From the first testimonial on p61 of Thorough ReportIt also retained this same
speed and regularity of rotation when it was used to lift a chest
containing 6 heavy wall-bricks (the total weight being about 70 lbs).
From the 2nd testimonial on p68He then attached a rope to the axle – the other end being
allowed to hang down out of the window. This far end was attached
to a chest full of bricks - about 70 lb weight in all – and this load was
raised and lowered several times by the machine. The most
noteworthy detail regarding this particular experiment was that the
wheel, while under this considerable load, continued to rotate at
exactly the same rate as when it was running “empty�.
This detail dovetails with the claim:
..from Bessler himself, on p205 of Das Triumpirende.Further advantage can be obtained by working the device in conjunction with ordinary machines
This is one sharpened machette of a clue, cutting a clear path through the thickets of possibilities.
As the load continuously winds on or off the axle, via the rope and pulley, the amount of energy being created during the lift is precisely equal to the energy destroyed during the drop.
An asymmetric interaction is, in principle, directional, and so reversible; that is to say, that the input work integral (the net product of force and displacement) can be smaller or greater than the output work integral.
This is as opposed to say, a gravitational interaction, wherein the input and output work integrals will always be equal, due to the constancy of mass and gravity.
So, one might anticipate that Bessler's mechanism would destroy energy when cycled in the 'wrong' direction. If it was meant to run CW, then turning it CCW might cycle the mechanism backwards - though not necesarily so, of course, depending on the vagaries of its exact nature.
However in light of the above testimonies, and in conjunction with Bessler's own claim that the efficiency is load-dependent, another possibility is made clear - that the asymmetry appears to go into reverse when the mechanism is forcibly rotated by an externally-applied torque.
So, in reconciling all this, we end up with a mechanism that has a dynamical equilibrium speed, and creates or destroys energy in order to maintain it.
We also know that each full 360° cycle of the wheel comprises multiple internal cycles of the asymmetric interaction, as opposed to it being one smooth continuous function. So there are multiple discrete interactions per cycle, and each one is composed of a pair of input and output (or positive and negative) work integrals.
We also know that statorless torque is being applied, so Newton's 3rd law suggests there must be an internal counter-torque, corresponding simultaneously with each phase of positive torque applied to the visible system.
Yet Bessler emphatically denies any internal stator, either, and seems unequivocal in insisting that everything must go round together, apparently, in the same direction.
So, what produces torque in the absence of a counter-torque?
MoI reduction.
Reduce MoI, and to conserve angular momentum, velocity must rise in step to compensate the reduction in MoI.
There is no counter-torque associated with this torque.
Likewise, a negative statorless torque has the neatest (if not exclusive) consistency with an increase in MoI.
Because varying MoI, by definition, involves varying a mass displacement, which cannot be a runaway process within the confines of an enclosed system, we know that the MoI-varying mechanism must be cyclical - it must involve masses transitioning radially between inner and outer positions.
As such, we're led to conclude that the energy symmetry between positive and negative torques induced by these MoI variations are directly influenced by either the torque applied to the net system, or else the speed of the net system:
- at startup, unloaded, the system still has resistance to angular acceleration in the form of angular inertia
- it also has considerable friction from its bearings
- it is also below its equilibrium speed
Any or all of these conditions correspond to greater torque from decreasing MoI, than counter-torque from when MoI must increase again.
- evidently, over-speeding, or applying positive torque to the axle, shifts the distribution of positive to negative induced torques the other way..
- it appears that the net torque from an MoI cycle is biased to rise or fall either side of the equilibrium speed; below optimum speed, a full radial cycle of the weights causes more positive than negative torque. Above optimum speed, the negative torque from increasing MoI is greater than the positive torque from decreasing MoI..
We're getting there.. by cross-referencing and sheer elimination, the range of consistent conclusions converges inevitably towards an X marking the spot.
A group of blind men can describe an elephant... it just takes a bit more time and effort..
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Likewise, a negative statorless torque has the neatest (if not exclusive) consistency with an increase in MoI.
To further clarify this point, statorless torques can also be induced by simply spooling or unspooling a load suspended from the axle under gravity. However Bessler explicity denied using this principle, claiming instead that his depended upon radial translations of paired masses. Thus, statorless torques associated with MoI variations are the most consistent remaining possibility.