Poss. Symmetry Break?

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MrVibrating
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Post by MrVibrating »

"For this concept, my 'principle of excess weight'" ... "these weights are themselves the PM device, the 'essential constituent parts' which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force (derived from the PM principle) indefinitely - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity."
"they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or 'point of rest', but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing."
LOL so their "point of equilibrium" and "center of gravity" must be the same thing, and hence an equilibrium MoI.

This implies that there are competing forces trying to maximise and minimise MoI.

The balance of these two opposing influences is in constant flux, with a bias that flips either side of optimum RPM.

Maybe the equilibrium MoI corresponds to a gravitational inequilibrium, or, more likely perhaps, alongside the innate disposition of a rotating system to maximise its MoI, gravity and / or springs are being applied to cause a tendency for the equilibrium MoI to be lower, rather than higher.

Either way, it seems clear that the MoI variation is due to the weights transitioning between opposing unbalanced poistions, their "center of gravity" would be equidistant from axle and rim, while CF wants to park one against the axle and the other out by the rim. As they alternate between inner and outer orbits, MoI rises and falls, and with it, the net product of MoI times RPM, RKE.

Over-speeding, or decreasing the load on the axle, increases the bias towards one or other equilibrium, while below optimum speed, it is biased the other way.

Maybe the system has two competing equilibrium MoI's - or else the 'equilibrium MoI' goal posts are in flux..
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?

Post by MrVibrating »

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Think i may have the full solution.. :)
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Post by MrVibrating »

I'd previously been considering the radially-translating masses as moving together, as if connected by a rod. Under such a regime, the minimum MoI state corresponds to both masses being equidistant from axle and rim, and CF wants to maximise the MoI by pushing one mass out to the rim while pulling the other into the center.

Any benefits of this method seem speculative at best. Really, i can't see a way to break symmetry if both the masses are contributing equal and opposite RKE variations - which is a direct consequence of their sharing a single axis.


But what if we add another, coaxially to the main center? The inbound and outbound masses can have their own individial pivots about the main axis.

So when we extend a mass outwards, increasing the MoI and decreasing the RKE, this can occur on a separate axis to when we retract the mass inwards, reducing its MoI and so causing an acceleration.

So consider instead a slightly different proposition: the masses still change radial positions at the same time. They could be attached to the ends of radially-oriented scissorjacks - exactly as shown in MT 39, with its "very special" application of them. The key point is that while their states of extension or retraction are hard-coupled via the interconnecting pulley system, their relative angle can vary independently!

You can probably now see where this is going..


Extending a mass radially induces a counter-torque. Retracting one induces positive torque.

All else being equal, so is the work integrals of these two torques over their respective angles; the same positive torque applied to the same mass will cause an equal change in energy as a torque of opposite sign.

But what if, instead, the two torques are divided into different masses?

So as one mass moves inwards, its angular acceleration increases, and thus applies a poitive torque to a small mass, which thus undergoes a high acceleration and thus rise in energy. Meanwhile, at the same time, we extend the other mass outwards, causing a deceleration.. but this counter-torque is applied to the whole system - the wheel itself, via suitable rim stops or whatever - and thus divided into a much greater mass, and thus a smaller velocity and thus energy drop.


An analogous mechanism would be the counter-rotating armatures from MT 143, the Roberval balance.

And the funny letter "A" littered throughout Machinen Tractate, as alluded to above.

So one arm undergoes a positive torque as its MoI goes down, the other undergoed a negative torque as its MoI goes up, and the former torque accelerates a small mass, while the latter decelerates the net system, but by less energy than has been invested into the smaller mass.. which then impacts the wheel, imparting its energy gain.

In short, equal and opposite torques can induce an unequal distribution of CW vs CCW RKE.

Gravity can assist in both retracting and extending the radially-moving masses. This contribution is balanced by having to relift them again, but while the net GPE remains neutral, the CW vs CCW distribution of RKE does not, and this results in the system having a natural directional bias - as the CW and CCW torques are distributed into unequal masses and thus energies.

As JC deduced, a bi-directional arrangement requires two sets of mechanisms biased in opposite directions.

In summary, gravity helps us decrease one MoI, while increasing another. But the work performed by the resulting positive and negative torques is distributed into unequal masses, and thus energies, and because these torques are self-induced (ie. statorless), the net system momentum and energy is unbalanced - there is a "preponderance" of positive, relative to negative RKE, and thus, in turn, momentum and torque.

Applying an additional load to the axle further divides the distribution of energy between the larger mass (now increased by whatever load's been attached), vs the smaller and unobstructed internal mass.. momentum is conserved, and thus the increased negative torque results in a commensurately-inreased positive torque applied to the smaller mass, thus perpetuating the asymmetric distribution of CW to CCW energies.

It is intrinsically load-matching. The slower the net system is braked, the faster the smaller internal mass is accelerated, reinforcing the asymmetry.

This would seem consistent enough with all the above clues, as well as the general course of this thread.. seemingly wrapping everything up neatly.

The solution, in a nutshell, is to convert the two opposing torques from an increasing vs decreasing MoI into unequal CW and CCW RKE's by dividing them into unequal masses. The two momenta will be equal, per N3, but the energies are not, and the greater energy of the smaller internal mass can easily be harvested by a simple collision.

It no doubt needs refining in the details, but that's the general picture. Will start work on it forthwith..
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?

Post by MrVibrating »

Here's a quick overview of the concept:

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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?

Post by Art »

Heavy Stuff !! : )

Very interesting rational and presentation . I'm going to have to whip the neurons into action again and reconsider some stuff I had already thought I had decided on .

And just as I was about to give up on weights and leverage again (for about the 6th time ).
Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
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re: Poss. Symmetry Break?

Post by MrVibrating »

OK here's a very rough demonstration of the concept:


The sim begins with everything rotating clockwise at an equal 10 RPM.

The weights begin in their equilibrium MoI state, and would rest there, everything remaining stationary on the wheel and turning at equal rate, except gravity is enabled, so pulls them both downward.

The two arms are geared to contra-rotate, independently of the wheel, so if one turns CW, the other turns equally CCW.

The two induced torques are positive and negative, so are cooperating to squeeze the arms together (ie. they could be the handles of a scissorjack or whatever - basic point is that the two opposing torques are both performing complimentary work, so maybe we can rectify both positive and negative torques to perform a net positive work).

Likewise, the sliding weights are interconnected by pulleys, so slide up and down their respective arms in lock step; whatever the relative angle of the arms, sliding one mass back and forth also moves the other in the same way.

No rim stops or collisions are involved yet, so all this currently demonstrates is that gravity can drag the weights out of their MoI comfort zone, and that the respective increasing and decreasing MoI's can exert opposing torques, due to their conservation of momentum through a changing arc radius.

Image


Neato, eh?

So the next step is to try and harness an asymmetric net result from these two opposing torques. I can see two potential strategies already:

1) as mentioned previously, i'm thinking maybe if the negative (red) torque from the outbound mass is sunk into the main wheel, with its high MoI, the negative work performed (deceleration of the net system) will amount to a small amount of lost RKE.

At the same time, the positive torque from the inbound (green) mass is not shared with the wheel just yet, allowing it to freely accelerate in the same direction as the wheel. Thus its smaller MoI and greater velocity means it picks up more RKE than is lost by the net system. This is then recuperated by a collision - ie. the green mass or its arm impacts or brakes against the wheel, transferring its RKE to the net system.

So the hope would be that we might sidestep Newton's 3rd law by inducing these statorless torques, and rectifying them into unequal MoI's, resulting in an asymmetric distribution of CW to CCW KE, and thus in turn, GPE and momentum.


Option 2) i mentioned above - we might try and rectify the two torques into a complimentary, cooperative effort to squeeze the handles of a scissorjack, or somesuch endeavor, combining an advantage from both to raise a weight and thus convert would would've been a drop in RKE to a rise in GPE.

Or something like that.



Will try then in order, sticking with option 1 for now..
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Post by MrVibrating »

Gravity's kind of muddying the picture here, boosting both torques as the arms and weights fall downwards, so i think i'll retry this using springs to slide the masses in and out instead of gravity. Then the induced torques will be purely MoI-dependent..
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Post by ME »

The balance of these two opposing influences is in constant flux
It looks like they end-up in a balanced position as those competing forces come together: once they're grounded, the battle is over. I'm afraid springs will not enhance this action.
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Post by MrVibrating »

Because the word "torque" hadn't been invented yet (a 19th century innovation), there was no standard concept of 'angular force' in Bessler's day - the vis viva debate regarding the primacy of CoM vs CoE was still ongoing, and so while we can be confident Bessler was intimately familiar with such concepts, we have to remain mindful of the fact that he lacks a standard lexicon of concepts that weren't even formalised at the time.

As well, he's trying to sell it up without giving it up, and we're also reading him through a layer of translation and transliteration.

So with these points in mind, i think he's made significant effort to clarify that we should be looking at statorless induced torques - as a necessity - and that they're to be produced by weights transitioning between inner and outer positions, but that any resulting overbalance is incidental to the exploit, if not inconsequential to perpetuating it.

To paraphrase Bessler, we're to look for an excess 'impetus to rotate' that must come from within, not from without. GPE interactions are in the latter camp - though still useful in their own right, they're not the source of the energy asymmetry, only adding substance to it.

This statorless torque from within can only be generated by a change in MoI, which can only be achieved by making radial translations, which is precisely what Bessler tells us to do.

Paired opposing radial translations, like the man said, induce opposing torques but no net work when both are forced to rotate at equal speed. Therefore they must be free to rotate, and thus change velocity, independently.

Thus, by a process of logical elimination, our target asymmetry must be something to do with how these two opposing torques are handled.
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Post by MrVibrating »

ME wrote:
The balance of these two opposing influences is in constant flux
It looks like they end-up in a balanced position as those competing forces come together: once they're grounded, the battle is over. I'm afraid springs will not enhance this action.
I'm not sure you've quite grasped the concept, which is a little sprawling to be fair..

The sim above is of little worth since gravity is complicating the picture, adding positive torque to both arms.

I want to see the torques pertaining only to the respective MoI changes - as one mass moves inwards it undergoes angular acceleration, and as the other moves outwards its angular speed decelerates.

So obviously, if gravity is also tugging both, this obscures the results of interest.

All i wanted gravity to do was give the weights a downwards tug, but not the arms, so if i disable gravity, springs can be used instead to exert forces on the sliding weights, without applying any direct torque to the arms. Then, their motions will be exclusively due to their respective MoI changes.

Also bear in mind that without springs or gravity, the system wants to maximise its MoI, so the weights are finely balanced at the top of a 'CF hill', and any slight perturbance will cause one to slide outwards, pulling the other inwards, into a higher-MoI and lower energy state.


Again, the rough sketch simmed above is of limited value - yes it keels due to gravity, but i'm not-at-all interested in gravity - the exclusive focus here is the two opposing torques induced by the inbound and outbound masses, and the interesting things we might do with them - such as sinking them into different sized inertias, and so yeilding an asymmetric distribution of CW to CCW KE. That kind of lark, not the gravitational kind..

Gravity is only of incidental involvement, and i only anticipate fully symmetrical gravitational interactions.
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Post by ME »

I'm not sure you've quite grasped the concept
Assume I don't, I just cherry picked the visual: You've typed a lot of info to take in.

So here's an idea for which I'm not sure it coincides with yours (so ignore if it deviates too much), at least it fits your name :-)

When a working wheel is in continuous rotation the centrifugal/centripetal force is set and adds an acceleration gradient on top of gravity. I guess whatever mechanism passes through such summed gradient will find balance, despite being more complex than gravity alone the effect is not much different. If this is really true (as I didn't exhaustively test the math involved), the rim of a rotating disc can be replaced by solid ground: making things a bit easier.

As those weights wobble around the wheel there's a frequent vibration in MOI which reflect in frequency of the centrifugal/centripetal force. As you deduced, it can be mapped onto the wheel rotation: so we can temporarily set rotation aside.
The oscillation in wheel rotation (caused by other mechanisms) could be replaced by a spring-cushioned bar.
Is it possible for a single mechanism in focus to ride this oscillation, and make that bar resonate with a bigger amplitude compared to a passive mechanism? (and does it indeed translate to a rotation as implied?)
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Post by MrVibrating »

In the following sim, two main alterations have been made:

- gravity is disabled

- a small spring constant of 100 mN is applied for the first 100 ms, in order to preturb the weights from their balance point, perched atop the centrifugal hillock

Additionally, the arms are now mounted to a coaxial hub, rotating independently from the outer wheel body, which for now is only included, coasting at the initial system velocity, for reference, but which could in principle be brought into play via appropriately-arranged collisions.

From thereon, the spring is deactivated, as if it has disappeared, and the system takes off, attempting to maximise its MoI, but constantly frustrating its own efforts to do so.

In effect, the system is rectifying positive torque from both decreasing and increasing MoI.

The motion is entirely chaotic - the weights' positions along their arms are directly linked by pulleys, and the arm angles are also interlocked via meshed gears, but these linear and angular paired motions are entirely self-synchronising, with no external reference frame (again, not even gravity).

All of the torque here is exclusively induced, and not 'applied' as by any conventional motor, via a stator or drop weight (no gravity = no GPE, thus not even a 'virtual' stator). The linear spring is very weak and only exists for the first fraction of a second.

There is no motor, no rotational spring, no GPE, nothing at all to apply torque 'from without'... it is purely generated from within, by these self-modulating MoI varations.

The only source of torque are those associated with the changing radial distances of the weights - the figure-skater effect, wherein retracting mass causes acceleration, and extending it, deceleration.

Here however, because the arms are constrained to cause each other's counter-rotation, there is positive feedback between the opposing torques from increasing and decreasing MoI:

a) - if a mass moves outwards, its angular velocity decreases

b) - at the same time, another moves inwards, so its angular velocity increases

- because they're directly coupled, (a) causes (b) causes (a)... they're complimentary, self-reinforcing actions, assisting one another.


I've just ripped thru half a dozen variations on this, all of which make crazy gains.

I've tried to make the gains go away (such as by limiting the spring PE, as detailed above), and for now, simulation error should be assumed.

The gain i had anticipated required sinking equal opposite torques into unequal MoI's, for an asymmetric distribution of net CW / CCW RKE.

What we're currently seeing is even simpler than this, and so needs more work to ascertain exactly what's happening and why.

Replacing the arms and pulleys with scissorjacks would seem a good cross-check..

Or alternatively the pantograph mentioned previously..

Still, error or not, it seems like tantalising progress..


Image

(apologies for the off-site image hosting, was too big for the limit here)
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Post by MrVibrating »

Dunno why the site ain't showing images..

testing:

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Weird?

OK here's a little mini version:

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Lotta grief just to show a piccy of an obvious error - regulars here know i have a habit of 'backing up' my BS with dodgy sims, it's honestly not deliberate, and i always fnd the error eventually.

In the meantime, though, this has got me buzzing..
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Post by jim_mich »

Forum does not handle secure links. Drop the 's' from https making it simply an unsecured call.
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You're welcome.

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Post by MrVibrating »

Cheers mate, thought it might be that, have similar trouble with YT vids sometimes.
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