Prof. Eric Laithwaite Inertial Propulsion & angular momentum of gyroscope

[Grimer]

Now that is a point.

The centre of gravity of earth/moon is just under the earths crust.

As a result we have two tides 1. the moon's attraction 2. caused by the earth's rotating around this Centre of Gravity.

Now is the second effect causing the iron core to rotate [technical term alert - sloshing around]?

That is a most interesting insight, Agor.

Moreover, the sloshing doesn't have to be large in feet and inches because the material is so stiff.

I'll explain what I mean in relation to the offset gyro.

To all external appearances the gyro disk is completely orthogonal to the axle connecting it to tower. To appreciate the internal strains one would either have to cut it up into individual masses as Laithwaite did - thanks for drawing attention to that, maybe you subconsciously realised the significance ;-) - or make the disk out of perspex or some other suitable transparent material, and view the dynamic disk with polarised light.

As an alternative one might mount sensitive strain gauges on the disk and measure the strains while the gyro is running. The forces generated by these strains will account for the moments opposing the horizontal and vertical moments.

Laithwaite was certainly hot on the trail and might have got there in the end had he lived long enough.

The consequence of the internal strains is that the gyro is orbiting the tower in a very shallow spiral (think of a flattened slinky). The free orbit that the disk would like to take, an open spiral virtually orthogonal to the orbit around the tower, is squashed nearly flat by the dynamic forces on the disk.

Thus the strain energy in the disk can correctly be seen as precession (3rd derivative) energy.

Just as with a yo-yo the Linear Kinetic Energy of vertical fall, LKE, is transmuted into the Rotational Kinetic Energy of the yo-yo, RKE, so also with the offset gyro the Linear and Rotational Kinetic Energies, LKE + RKE are transmuted into the Precession Kinetic Energy, PKE, of the offset gyro.

One might even think of it as an offset yo-yo. :-)

[rlortie]

I am not involved with this thread, but Grimer is of the generation that may be useful.

Anti-aircraft guns on land or on a ship, how did they aim them? They used gyroscopes connected to viewing mirrors. The object is to get the shells to the moving target on time to connect. The gunner doing the aiming was not seeing the target where it was but where it would be when the allotted time for the bullet to meet.

Gyroscopes were also involved in compensating for the pitch, roll and speed of navel vessels.

[ME]

Thus the strain energy in the disk can correctly be seen as precession (3rd derivative) energy.

Oh man... do you know how hard it is to keep up with all the possible candidates for this so-called 3rd derivative... :-/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

The consequence of the internal strains is that the gyro is orbiting the tower in a very shallow spiral (think of a flattened slinky). The free orbit that the disk would like to take, an open spiral virtually orthogonal to the orbit around the tower, is squashed nearly flat by the dynamic forces on the disk.

When the disk is a bit flexible then this interesting (not free) effect happens: https://youtu.be/zs7x1Hu29Wc?t=152
I guess it has something to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobble_frequency

[Grimer]

For anyone who's having a problem with understanding Precession Kinetic Energy, look at it this way.

It's obvious that when one tries to twist a spinning disk about a vertical axis that considerable forces have to be used. These moment forces times the distance they are moved represents work done.

Where does this work go?

It goes into the distortion of the disk. Strain Energy in other words.

Seems simple enough to me. Maybe that's because my research experience is in the strength of materials, not in dynamics.

After all, second derivative energy, RKE, involves some of the linear energy being taken up by the strain energy in the material connecting the circling body to the centre of rotation. Precession Kinetic Energy is just the next logical step.

[ME]

Seems simple enough to me. Maybe that's because my research experience is in the strength of materials, not in dynamics.

Sure, good for you.
Now we've cleared that up, please explain what you think the unit of measurement should be for that "second derivative energy" and how it is derived; you rushed it a bit while suggesting it to be something fundamental...

[Grimer]

Unit of natural strain energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_energy

[ME]

That link didn't tell the Unit.
But this is the "second derivative" or the "third derivative energy"? And what about the derivation?

[Grimer]

You're the mathematician. DYOR.

[ME]

I'm not.
Besides I may be able to DMOR but there are more visitors with each their expertise or enthusiasm.

You claim the whole dictionary, attach some nonsense and expect it to be true.
Those claims of random knowledge could be interesting, but it's also up to you to explain and attach some sense.

...the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... n_of_proof

Until then all your 'information' belongs in the Fraud-section at best: a. the intentional perversion of truth; b. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting
Totally avoidable by answering questions you claim to be simple.

[ME]

sigh...

strain energy which is a form of potential energy. The strain energy in the form of elastic deformation is mostly recoverable in the form of mechanical work.

It's Joules...
It basically robs a part of that twist-input into deformation... a part may be recoverable, some other part will be lost in entropy and be called friction.

There's no "derivative"-part here.

[agor95]

@ME just read the link on the wiki site.

Well stress is pressure N/m^2 and strain is dimension less distortion.

energy is Joules; we can live with that.

What I understand on this derivative issue is simply.

Velocity then rotational acceleration and then the gyro's rotation in itself.

The other idea is velocity, rotational acceleration and then a change in radius while in rotation.

Both of the above would cause a rate of change in acceleration.

That is as far as I go on the subject.

If I was to put an idea forward I would have to put some foundation, illustration too back it up.

Or as you put it homework :-)

Regards

[ME]

@Agor... thanks for doing Grimer's homework :-\

It would have been nice if Grimer himself added such specific answer.
History shows he now continues to be vague about his "theory" but still may use yours as support.
Specifics matter as it's otherwise a guess; in this case your guess.
So "third derivative energy" not only includes a change in linear acceleration, centrifugal stuff but also precession and now pressure too?

There's not a single effort from mr G's own side to clarify those important details, but yet this all forms some basis for some next obscure idea.
Any such "derived" idea (how even interesting without the "added knowledge") will just add to more nonsense:
When the foundation is unstable the rest will be an inpatient disaster.
Grimer should know as a "soil expert", thus all this vagueness is deliberate.

But on the subject how Grimer puts it recently:

* Thus the strain energy in the disk can correctly be seen as precession (3rd derivative) energy.
* Where does this work go? It goes into the distortion of the disk. Strain Energy in other words.
* [...] second derivative energy, RKE [...] Precession Kinetic Energy is just the next logical step.
* Unit of natural strain energy.--> wiki

All those occurrences clearly indicate "strain energy" as a form of Energy not "pressure", hence I asked for a simple Unit - because it's about his theory, not about my interpretation.

It's not hard to extrapolate some Units of measurement and fantasize about some possible connection.
Unfortunately it doesn't make any finding automatically true, and it should be clear it is a fantasy before someone may falsely assume its validity.
In this case Grimer rushes his own.


But thanks Agor.
We could indeed have discussed [J=Nm] versus [Pa=N/m²=J/m³], which should (as he put it) have been an easy and simply answer by Grimer himself.
And such could have been something interesting if it would indeed have been a derivative.
Spoiler alert: it's not.

If I was to put an idea forward I would have to put some foundation, illustration too back it up.

It's the least one could try to make an idea a bit sturdy and strong, any many are even willing to help at some point...

[agor95]

ME

I like your last statement as I have found your virtue on helping people; who are less trained, as yourself, honorable.

However toleration would help in the process. Also would help increase your standing.

So "soil expert" is not a term I would have expected from you.

I feel compelled to apologize for you to the forum. you are better than that.

Moving on grimer is trying to study this gyro trolly devise.

I am trying to learn some web illustration technology Blender, x3Dom, Javascript. Then we can get some illustrations working in members internet browers.

If you can help in the way the dynamic forces are working in the examples; to come. We will all be greater for the combine results.

P.S. I note this is not addressing the bessler wheel.
However it is building the skills to working on the subject.

[ME]

So "soil expert" is not a term I would have expected from you.

Maybe because it basically was based on Grimer's expertise?

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 674#111674
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 068#134068

(I used that term as metaphor, not an insult)

[rlortie]

I believe Grimer has the education and experience to be considered a "soil expert". He is likely one of few here that can relate the word "Cleavage" to more than a woman's breast.

Having somewhat a related background of Grimer's education, I also attended college classes regarding soil and geology. The professor had a well endowed female assistant. When she handed me a sample of soil dried from mud, I broke it to examine it's shear cleavage. Upon the mention of "cleavage" the class went into an uproar and the professor stomped out of the class room.