Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

[unstable]

John, do not be alarmed, I'm not referring directly to you :) ... suspicious about the excessive interpretations of the documents... and therefore about the whole story. But no one have resposability. I understand, it is difficult to follow the facts in an impartial (objective) way.

[IamAllergicToEntropy]

From most probable to least probable, I think the list is:

I without absolutely No doubt whatsoever pick gravity. C.F. No. Although cats are cute.

This thread is a VERY informative read. I must get some of the works about Bessler. I almost feel like I am newly found in a faith at church without a "bible" to read, so I can follow. I have a basic design that I want to build that uses weights, an over balance wheel. But explaining that here would derail the thread. Not to mention I am not sure what I would do if my idea really works.

[unstable]

"From most probable to least probable, I think the list is:

Environment heat/pressure
Chemical reaction
Stored fuel/pe
Inertia/momentum asymmetry
Gravity and/or cf
Cat"


Bill, I agree with you...
the last of the possibilities made me roll out laughing. :-)))

[ovaron]

it is NOT correct that the Carolo Attestat gives the answer, cause the attestat only testifies the four week running of the wheel but NOT a view inside by Carl. It is sad, that nobody here notices such an important mistake.

That is not completely right. In the Attestat stands:

daß
dasselbige weder von einer äus-
serlichen Gewalt und Hülffe /
noch vielweniger aber von et-
wan einigen innerlichen auf zu
ziehenden Uhr-Feder-oder Rä-
der-Werck beschuldigten Falls
dependire

From this you must conclude that Karl has seen the interior, otherwise he couldn't confirm something like that.

What I find somewhat strange about the attestation is that he does not explicitly attest that he has seen the interior. Did he want to leave a back door open because he might not have understood the principle and was not 100% sure that it was a "real perpetuum mobile"?

Why did not he buy the wheel himself? Was it so simple that he thought it was only a matter of time before someone else thought about it?

Why did he financially support Bessler until his own death? Was he unsure if he was duped by a gifted illusionist and was afraid of the shame if this could become public?

[John Collins]

I apologise in advance but these are such old questions that have been answered so many times over the years - and yet I guess some here were not around that long ago.

As I said a few days ago, there is a letter from Bessler to Karl asking for the payment of 4000 thalers as agreed between them and under oath for allowing Karl to see the interior.

Karl was known for his interest and knowledge about a wide variety of technology, and he expressed surprise at the simplicity of the wheel.

He was perfectly capable of understand the principle of the machine. He was present on many occasions when Denis Pain carried out many of his famous experiments with Steam.

He did not buy the wheel because it would not pump water to the top of the casacade he was building, and as I have explained numerous times before, he was more convinced by the steam engine of Thomas Newcomen which he thought might do the job.

He gave Bessler five years salary when he left Karl’s employment.

I hate to advertise but if anyone bothered to read my biography about Bessler written some 22 years ago now, all these questions are answered there.

JC

[unstable]

"He was perfectly capable of understand the principle of the machine"

Sorry John but you should not make statements about something you do not know as objective reality. We can not know if Karl understood the functioning of the wheel of Bessler.
If, with our interpretation, we influence the texts by giving them a certain meaning, we will no longer find the right path. I believe that this whole story is imbued with these interpretations.

[Hotzenplotz]

As I said a few days ago, there is a letter from Bessler to Karl asking for the payment of 4000 thalers as agreed between them and under oath for allowing Karl to see the interior.
[...]
I hate to advertise but if anyone bothered to read my biography about Bessler written some 22 years ago now, all these questions are answered there.
JC

There is no such letter mentioned in your book. What is to be found there (p. 113 ) is a letter from Wolff to Blumentrost that tells this story. This is the difference we're talking about.

[John Collins]

I wrote in haste, and my meaning was inexact. I mentioned the letter because it wasn’t in my book because I had not acquired a copy of it at that time. I have mentioned the existence of this letter many times but each time the question arises I have to explain why it wasn’t in my book.

Since I published my book, I have received many pieces of information from original documents many of which either I did not know of at the time or I could not obtain copies. Remember, back in 1995/6 when I was writing my book after many years research, the internet was dial-up and very limited and not really much use. Now it is wonderful and it is possible to obtain copies of documents that back in those days hadn’t been digitised.

I am also in regular contact with others who are also seeking original documents.

As for Karl’s mechanical aptitude, the details are in my book. He was well-known for his interest and knowledge about the latest scientific discoveries and Gottfried Leibniz remarks on his intellectual curiosity and support for all the latest inventions in many different fields.

JC

[ovaron]

If Karl did not buy the wheel only because it was not useful for his own purposes, then two conclusions can be drawn from it:

1. He did not have the vision of what significances is a machine that can do work without (visible) supply of energy.

2. If he did not have this foresight, then one must assume that he was not very intelligent, in contrast to Leibnitz, who immediately recognized the great benefit, even if it was not supposed to be a perpetuum mobile.

From this one can conclude that he did not understand the principle on which the machine was based and as a key witness is not of much value.

[Hotzenplotz]

More interesting seems to me the question why he paid Bessler and got nothing back. This was a very bad deal for Carl with no chance to win. Maybe the czar would win, or anybody else, but not Besslers main sponsor.

[sleepy]

For his money,Karl got to be the exclusive witness of cutting edge technology. I know the mystery of Bessler's wheel eats at me day and night,and if I was given the opportunity to pay a sum of money to be given an exclusive look inside,then there would only be 2 people who knew how it worked,and I would be one of them. That is a very strong reason.

[Hotzenplotz]

This might be a good reason to pay 4000 Talers, but it's not a good reason to employ somebody for about 10 years. This ist double-paying without getting any use. No good deal.

[Georg Künstler]

I would prefer to have the original text also in wiki, so that we can interpret the sentences our own.

Some of the english translations are misleading.

[John Collins]

I confess I’m bemused by the determination of Hotzenplotz and Ovaron to try to dismiss my points about Karl. I’m not making it up and it’s not just my opinion. Why don’t you do a little research by reading about Karl and his generosity, his integrity, his enthusiasm for new ideas and his reputation as a supporter of the arts and sciences of his day.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles ... sse-Kassel

You can get more information under the two headings ‘economy’ and ‘culture’.

He was a brilliant man, well respected, tough and yet a patron of arts and sciences.

JC

[Oystein]

For his money,Karl got to be the exclusive witness of cutting edge technology. I know the mystery of Bessler's wheel eats at me day and night,and if I was given the opportunity to pay a sum of money to be given an exclusive look inside,then there would only be 2 people who knew how it worked,and I would be one of them. That is a very strong reason.

Spot on!