Bessler wheel lesson 1

[Besslers Assistant]

@Tarsier79, I ask that you rethink your position of the dynamics of what is happening at position 2 for the figure above. I can tell that in your experiments that friction took your power away before you had the chance to see it. Remember the energy we are trying to recover is a pulse, if your timing is off, you will miss most of it. Also if your experimental mechanism behaves as a shock absorber and you do not notice it, you may come to the wrong conclusions (I have done this many times). Please go back to your experiments and identify the points of friction and calculate your loses. If you where using a spring to store your power, your experiment was seriously flawed. The spring used in the device is not to store power in any way, but rather to recover the pendulum mass and place it back to the 10 meter position. The storage of power is done by the disc and the pendulum.


@Jim_mich, only one thing I can say of your location of CF is “That’s Preposterous Jim� (no disrespect intended, I am a trekkee, I could not pass up the opportunity). Your use of the terms “inertial momentum� and “Inertial force� makes you sound as if you are reading from scripture. The dynamics of rotational motion in a gravitation flied is very different to one where that flied is absent. A simple experiment can solve this, place a weight at the end of a string and spin the string above your head perpendicular to gravity. Spin the weight very fast and slowly, slowly decrease the speed. You will notice throughout the motion, the force of the string on your hands was relatively constant for each cycle. Now do the same thing, but spin the weight parallel this time and observe the behavior of the weight. I ask that you review Newtonian Mechanics and its’ relation to the X and Y coordinate systems. Rotational motion has its’ shortcuts through polar coordinate system, but the X and Y coordinate system (though the math is long and tedious) makes it quite clear where the resultant forces ‘really’ are.


Bye for now.

[Tarsier79]

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Many think that CF is an outward force

The force is a result of inertia, its path is a tangent to the wheel, but in reference to the wheel, the direction of the force acts exactly radially outwards from the axis at all times. I agree with your thoughts on the movement of BAs mech.

I recently made a mech, acted upon by CF, the "wheel" being about 1.2m. In the diagram below, the red bar is attached to the axle, and is where torque is applied. It took very little speed for CF to pull the yellow weight outward, forcing the grey rod forward. I tried the mech in reverse but driving it with the grey rod, with the same result. I had to modify the mech so the weighted green rod was in line with the radius so I could spin it up to speed.

BA, my mechanism had extremely little resistance, and it is not my logic or experiment that was flawed. CF can provide a great force, but when you extract energy, you cannot extract more than KE of the weight, which is a product of its speed, which is caused in your mech by its fall in gravity. Also you mentioned resistance. For the weight to take the correct path to extract the maximum energy, you need a great resistance. Adding a spring may move the weight back to the inner position (and losing a little height), but again, extracting energy from this will result in additional and proportional loss of pendulum height.

[Besslers Assistant]

@ Tersier79, your result tells me you did your experiment perpendicular to the gravitational flied. Rotational motion within a gravitational flied is very different to one were the gravitational flied is absent. Please conduct the experiment I told Jim_Mich to do, you may understand better why harvesting CF in a pendulum is a good thing for PM.



bye for now.

[Tarsier79]

You assume wrong, and I think I am happy at this stage with my understanding of this mechanism.

[iacob alex]

Hi !
The gravity freefall of an inverted pendulum as a mass - spring system , can be an interesting experiment due to addition , then substraction every 180* degrees of the centrifugal effect (radial acceleration )...intended to play a possible continuous alternating long(er) arm- short(er) arm rotation...or variable pendulum ?!
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _254060134
Al_ex

[agor95]

Reading the link one can see the advantage of a robotic leg being made from a inverted pendulum.

By using such an element you get self correcting without computation.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi,
in my Bi-directional Version I use also springs.
The springs are pre loaded with the net weight of the internal structure.
It is a walker mechanism with 8 legs.

Hope that my model designer can complete it this week.
It will cost me some money, but at least I will know if my idea was right or false.

When I am right, the Version is self accelerating.
When I am wrong I will let build the self starting Version based on the apologia Wheel.

No one knows if we have found then the solution Bessler has build, but we know the way how to harvest energy from gravity.

[axel]

I think increasing the swing radius creates an angular momentum problem when the pendulum swings.

[ME]

Reading the link one can see the advantage of a robotic leg being made from a inverted pendulum.

By using such an element you get self correcting without computation.

According to that paper (2012) it needs a controller, I think it still (2019) needs a controller.

SLIP - Spring Loaded Inverted Pendulum
For the visual and fun, see it in action:: a precursor of that Boston Dynamics stuff [MIT-Raibert] https://youtu.be/XFXj81mvInc

Balancing an inverted pendulum is interesting for perpetual motion research because you need find out how to control stuff above the center of mass, and find a way to try to reverse the potential trap of the act of falling over.

We can start by looking at the most simplified solution by trying to emulate a normal pendulum: Behaving as-if the inverted pendulum has a larger mass below its pivot, actually making it a normal pendulum that uses the lowest potential as a balance point... but doing that would be cheating, and not a solution.

So I tried some passive (hopefully self-correcting) simulations.
An arm (in red) was given to help it to find its balance at a lower potential, like a normal pendulum, but above its pivot.
Sometimes it hopped only a few times back and forth, most of the times it just bailed-out. Attached: not the best, just the funniest.
oh well, keep trying...

[ME]

Admitting, the previous Duck&Cover animation was pretty worthless.
More interesting is to show&include the thing that actually stayed upright a little bit longer.
So I'll include that one (Sorry for the flickering because of the lower frame-rate)
With a tweaked arm we get a better hopper that balances great on the edge of its own chaos.
Looks happy, but this one gets hopelessly 'exhausted 'too.
Then it dies.

Maybe it sparks an idea on how to stay dynamically balanced (for as long as possible).

[agor95]

A good demo - thanks

Now what about an imbalanced one in a rotating frame of reference.

Thus the tendency to self wright is not vertical but at an angle.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi ME,
very good demonstration, what I am miss is the moving ground.
Your ground is fix.

I have learned this from Prof Alfred Evert, which said, the wall must also move. Maybe he and I am wrong, but I give this idea a great chance.
It results in turn the turner.

Make the same in the Hamster cage, in the correct angle, then you have a moving ground.

This will turn the wheel.

[ME]

Now what about an imbalanced one in a rotating frame of reference.
Thus the tendency to self wright is not vertical but at an angle.

What would be the expected outcome?

Here's a link to Newton's cradle simulation in a rotating environment.
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 485#139485

[agor95]

A good demo - thanks

Now what about an imbalanced one in a rotating frame of reference.

Thus the tendency to self wright is not vertical but at an angle.

What would be the expected outcome? .

The action of moving the pendulum radially would bias the main bass to
position itself, say at the one O'clock position.

The rotational torque should be independent from the above interactions.

The outcome is we work towards Besslers Wheel and honor/honour the web sites existence.

[ME]

a. The action of moving the pendulum radially would bias the main bass to position itself, say at the one O'clock position.
b. The rotational torque should be independent from the above interactions.

From a rotational perspective, the Coriolis effect causes that bouncing pendulum to traverse the drum in a fictitious curve across the drum.
From a static observation, the drum just keeps rotating no matter how high it jump, as such it can't keep its position [a].
When hopping in place when the ground moves, or simply move on solid ground, then there's a reaction force.
Hopping with a controller, as indicated by that earlier paper, means that there is a force-angle of impact and another force-angle of restitution: those should balance for keeping constant speed. Not sure if that can be done passively.

So I suspect a (passive dynamic) hopper would likely find a fixed point on the drum, and hop while rotating.
But I first have to find a hopper that moves forward on flat terrain, before I can hop&move inside a carousel.
Moving forward would be interesting on itself as this is a passive-dynamic mechanism (read: unactuated/uncontrolled/without servos, motors, electronics).

Also, that thing I'm investigating here is hardly generic as-is and (for now) operates at a very precair/critical balance point of chaos, which I have to mathematically find first (Always starting with that first animated one who thinks: F* it)
I'll see what I can figure out...