Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by MrVibrating »

Fletcher wrote:FWIW .. Wolff and Liebniz, and sGravesande, Wagner et al, i.e. Bessler contemporaries, could not then or now (should they be alive today) have fathomed, from now known and generally accepted mathematical principles, Bessler's 'Principle of Perpetual Motion'.

Newton, who published his Laws of Motion Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy) in 1687 refused to engage with Bessler and his machines. Bessler must have been aware of Newton's Laws of Motion and recognised the state of incongruity his Principle created with the more famous and respected Englishman's treatise. Bessler perhaps went so far as to call his the "Principle of Perpetual Motion' as an addendum to Newton's Laws of Motion as a nod and wink to Newton and the others ?!

It was not that they were incapable of following the math and physics, but simply that even Newton's Laws (gaining popularity and acceptance) did not adequately describe the physical conditions of Perpetual Motion as Bessler knew it. Those that allowed a machine of pure physical applications to accelerate, accumulate momentum, and self sustain rotation whilst EMGAT, solely in the presence of conservative gravity force and nothing else.

I would guess that they like us would rationalize Besslers' machines behaviour as a violation of Newton's Third etc, if they were convinced they were genuine and knew Newtons' Laws. But beyond that they would be a stumped for a mathematical explanation just as much as any of us today. The coherent Laws just don't distill any further. Indeed as Bessler was also stumped, IMO. Bessler could predict his machines behaviour from observational results and further calculation but could not explain the math behind it any more successfully or conveniently than we can today, IMO.

So whichever way you cut it, we are looking for a machine of physical applications that is fit to demonstrate Bessler "Principle of Perpetual Motion". Tho we will never from within the current paradigm be able to mathematically describe it's aforementioned behaviour, also imo.

Possibly the best we can do is say that some Law of Newton's is violated in certain physical conditions and this leads to asymmetric torque or 'torque prejudice' within his wheels. We might describe the Effect, but not the Cause, with any certainty. The Cause might need a rethink of Newtonian Physics and perhaps Einsteinian and Quantum Physics as well in due course ?!

Bessler might not have known the math behind his own machines but he would have known the observational Physics i.e. the physical reasons it behaved the way they did (they were simple and unambiguous, once known, no doubt). And he tells us it starts with his Principle of 'Zusammen Gehängten' ('Together Hung', also interpreted as Connectedness in some quarters) which must be diligently appreciated and applied. It is the first and most important clue in MT appearing at MT9 followed by other physical clues thru to MT38 where correct application of Storks' Bills get a special mention, imo. Not to mention the Toy's Page substitution/addition near the end of MT which wraps them altogether in one location.

Bessler was a canny individual so don't be surprised if there are deliberate plays on words and double meanings in his friendly guidance thru MT. MT11 ( MT i i ) comes to mind, coming so close after MT9. The 'Connectedness/Together Hung' Principle might equally well apply to the Prime Mover and also to the Secondary Mechanical System, for example !? One Principle with duality applying to both the Primary and Secondary Physical Systems in play, perhaps ! Covers all bases !

However you unravel the physical metaphors contained in MT, and AP-DT-GB, you must deduce a physical embodiment of interacting parts that do justice to Bessler's self titled 'Principle of Perpetual Motion'. One that simply (say it quickly) accumulates Momentum from contrived imbalance conditions,, IMO.

Sleep on it ;7)
I wasn't aware of the "together hung" translation - does seem more meaningful than "connectedness principle". It seems almost certain that his grasp of the mechanics improved after the discovery, but to begin with, i'm sceptical that one could chance across a runner unless pointedly trying to accumulate momentum in the first place..

Doubtless he would've been aware of Newton's vis viva as the inertia * velocity product, and this may have informed his experimental aims - and likewise, perhaps, regarding N3. It seems unlikely anyone could achieve an effective N3 break by accident, such as while trying to achieve perpetual OB.

This is why i've long now concluded that he was indeed trying to distill mV from its negative counterpart - that he recognised that to impel some mass in one direction necessarily means applying equal mV in the opposite direction, the two cancelling out.

Achieving an N3 break requires specifically aiming to accumulate mV by somehow sinking or cancelling its negative counterpart, in an otherwise closed-system of masses interacting about a common axis.

He would only have later thus solved the KE relationship - the potential to perform work as a function of mV accumulated.


Where i shoot right off the rails compared to you is in interpreting the Toys page - specifically items 'A' and 'B' - as indicating "something extraordinary" that culminates from a series of specifically five reactionless angular accelerations - the 'extraordinary' aspect being this excess potential to perform work, ie. energy gain..

..and this is why i'm claiming Bessler must've solved the vis viva dispute himself - differentiating mV from the potential to perform work, AKA energy.

Simply accumulating mV requires input work. But accumulate enough of the reactionless kind - of mV sans counter-mV - and that relationship inverts, and the work / energy cost turns negative. So Bessler would have understood, by the time he drew the Toys page, the distinction between momentum and energy, as well as the basic concept of 'efficiency' between input work and output potential, directly as a function of the amount of accumulated mV / elapsed cycles. Hence he would've understood he was manipulating a 25% per-cycle efficiency accumulator. Thus that the 'quantum of magic' here is 'quarters' - which also ties up the AP wheel, as depicting "three quarters", and hence one-quarter less than unity, as a metaphor for 'loss', the opposite of 'gain', and thus a mark of damnation in relation to the surely heaven-sent gift of energy gain resulting from "five quarters" per the Toys page - hence its purpose is to signify condemnation of Wagner et al by the very terms of this 'natural system' he / they are blind to.


Because that's the core of the solution - the relationship between the potential to perform work, in terms of both buying momentum, and its resulting value to perform further work. That's what PM is.

In short, i don't believe it's possible to break N3 unless one is explicitly trying to do so in the first place, and upon succeeding to the level required to gain energy, i don't see that it's possible not to have a full working understanding of the basic concept of 'efficiency' of 'work potential' - ie. input / output energy efficiency.


And this is what none of his contemporaries could fathom - since they were split between the Leibniz and Newtonian interpretations of the vis viva, both of which were obviously conserved quantities. Only by grasping the relationship between them can we, today, plot out even hypothetical KE gains.

I think the evidence of his success proves that Bessler had solved the vis viva dispute quite comprehensively, but that it was also the core of his secret principle, hence why he didn't discuss it in detail. It would've amazed him to know that we today, in full possession of the facts of mV and ½mV², still haven't replicated his 'system naturalis'..

But like his contemporaries, we proceed from a priori starting predicates of assumptions of conservation.

If there's a jibe to Newton in MT, it's those guys on the swings, gaining momentum from gravity without applying counter-torques at their axes.. stuff everyone back then already knew about, as they do to this day!

We've all known, intuitively since childhood, that momentum is conserved.. apart from when it isn't! Bessler's only real addendum to that is arguably that when it isn't, neither is the potential to perform work!
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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

Bill wrote:
Fletcher wrote:However you unravel the physical metaphors contained in MT, and AP-DT-GB, you must deduce a physical embodiment of interacting parts...
Bessler wrote:You'll soon find, you splendid mechanics, that this is a nut you can't crack!

If not mechanics, then which discipline can crack the nut?

My personal opinion Bill is that Bessler took a bit of license with that crack - a bit of bear baiting for Wagner's benefit.

Because he also says (paraphrased) that he found it where everybody else had looked for it. Clearly everybody else thru the ages has used mechanical applications of various sorts. Same as us.

So how do I make both statements meaningful and reconcile them ?

Splendid mechanics ( aka builders .. read Wagner et al) who use the standard approach(s) and physical applications trying to create a self sustaining imbalance wheel will fail.

It is a nut that can't be cracked by conventional means of levers, weights, and their usual direct CoG displacement applications. Or put another way applying standard one dimensional mechanical thinking and problem solving to find an arrangement giving sustained imbalance from gravity (Cog/CoM displacement) will fail.

Yet Bessler had the same tools in the tool box as those before him and we have today. He found the answer there anyways (in totality), no matter what he says in baiting Wagner.

So by deduction he used known mechanical techniques in an arrangement that gave the fabled and long sort after asymmetric torque as everything went around together !

BUT .. whilst we emphasize the weight displacement (to CoG shift) aspects of leverage/levers and weights he used them for another purpose entirely. IOW's he inserted another step in the mechanical procedures of the Secondary System of weights and levers i.e. to displace the Prime Mover (Primary Mechanical System), which in turn, once imbalanced by the Secondary Mechanical System, caused the asymmetric torque and self sustaining nature for the entire wheel. IMO.

Aka .. a wheel that looked outwardly like many other types of leverage based imbalance wheels but differed in one great and important respect. It did not keel and accelerated and sustained its motion. IOW's the particular arrangement of Secondary and Primary and the feedback between the two resulted in a torque prejudice and non-keeling machine. IOW's a true Principle of Perpetual Motion from conservative gravity force.

These are my opinions !
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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by raj »

Fletcher,
Thanks for your reflections.

This is what I've been trying in all my wheel attempts, in my NON scientific engineering but naive way.

Raj
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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

MrVibrating wrote:
I wasn't aware of the "together hung" translation - does seem more meaningful than "connectedness principle".

It seems almost certain that his grasp of the mechanics improved after the discovery, but to begin with, i'm sceptical that one could chance across a runner unless pointedly trying to accumulate momentum in the first place..

Doubtless he would've been aware of Newton's vis viva as the inertia * velocity product, and this may have informed his experimental aims - and likewise, perhaps, regarding N3. It seems unlikely anyone could achieve an effective N3 break by accident, such as while trying to achieve perpetual OB.

.. snip ..

This is why i've long now concluded that he was indeed trying to distill mV from its negative counterpart - that he recognised that to impel some mass in one direction necessarily means applying equal mV in the opposite direction, the two cancelling out.

.. snip ..

Because that's the core of the solution - the relationship between the potential to perform work, in terms of both buying momentum, and its resulting value to perform further work. That's what PM is.

.. snip ..

We've all known, intuitively since childhood, that momentum is conserved.. apart from when it isn't! Bessler's only real addendum to that is arguably that when it isn't, neither is the potential to perform work!
All good points Mr V, in your context.

If Bessler was indeed simply trying to find a way to accumulate momentum (and I believe he was) that would be his mechanical investigation jumping off point. Same as us. I doubt his starting point would be at the math level of detail which wasn't yet developed into the fully coherent system we have today. He only talks about momentum and force (english words in accompanying MT notes) for example, as to his level of understanding, tho he may have had greater understanding than that. Certainly about leverage for example.

And if he found a way to mechanically create asymmetric torque from imbalance of weights (accumulate momentum) then your points are answered without exploring the incomplete math of the time. But that's just my opinion about how he got on the right track and from what I deduce from MT's context.

All analysis methods to an answer are obviously open for discussion at this time.
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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

raj wrote:Fletcher,
Thanks for your reflections.

This is what I've been trying in all my wheel attempts, in my NON scientific engineering but naive way.

Raj
You're welcome Raj .. we all try to do things differently than history shows. At least I hope we do.

My earlier point being that Bessler didn't further simplify down a standard OOB approach as we might perhaps expect him to have done. IMO he went against the flow and in fact added another intermediary step, making it more complex in effect (the opposite of what we all try to do generally, well, not you ;7)) i.e. repurposing the Secondary OOB system for a greater purpose than temporary imbalance, which in turn created the sustained OOB effect.

My opinions are my own !
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Post by ovyyus »

Fletcher wrote:My personal opinion Bill is that Bessler took a bit of license with that crack - a bit of bear baiting for Wagner's benefit.
Yet Bessler's statement holds as true today. I still wonder if Bessler hinted that mechanics alone can't solve the problem.
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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

Bill wrote:
fletcher wrote:My personal opinion Bill is that Bessler took a bit of license with that crack - a bit of bear baiting for Wagner's benefit.

Yet Bessler's statement holds as true today.

I still wonder if Bessler hinted that mechanics alone can't solve the problem.
That's a valid interpretation as any at this point Bill (that other than mechanics is required).

I always could see how you could arrive at that conclusion (based on probability alone), given lack of alternatives in the strictly mechanical field, at this time.
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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by WaltzCee »

ovyyus wrote:
Fletcher wrote:However you unravel the physical metaphors contained in MT, and AP-DT-GB, you must deduce a physical embodiment of interacting parts...
Bessler wrote:you'll soon find, you splendid mechanics, that this is a nut you can't crack!
If not mechanics, then which discipline can crack the nut?
You splendid mechanics sounds like sarcasm to me, addressed to those that use mechanics, not so much a mechanical method.
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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by ovyyus »

Bessler was multi-disciplined. If his secret belonged to a discipline outside of mechanics then his point would be missed by mechanics.
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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Georg Künstler »

Ovyyus wrote:

Bessler wrote:
you'll soon find, you splendid mechanics, that this is a nut you can't crack!
The Problem which is not been seen is, that we have here a combination of movments. therefore we have the connectedness Principle.
The next Problem is, that it can be solved in many ways.
In the mean time I have found several ways to solve this mechanical riddle.
But you all know the real built is the prove.

What I see which met this thread is the word decoupling.
This is an essential clue.
decoupling.
We have two systems acting one against the other.
I will correct the above sentence to:
We have two systems acting one with the other.

In the Wheel is a mechanism which allows a
a couple and a decoupling
The next condition which must be met:
it must be preloaded with Gravity energy.
The system is under stress from gravity.

I don't know where it is written in the documents, :
it moves like a Cancer, oh sorry, a Translation error,
it moves like a Crab.
Wie alle Zehnfusskrebse besitzt die Strandkrabbe 10 Beine (5 Beinpaare), von denen das erste Paar zu kraeftigen Scheren umgebildet ist und die uebrigen Beine 4 gleich lange Laufbeinpaare bilden
4 gleich lange Laufbeinpaare <--> 4 pairs of legs that are equally long
So we have 8 moving legs !!
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Post by raj »

Two mechanism, NOT against one another.
But Helping each other in their motion in the same direction.
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Post by Georg Künstler »

Hi Raj,
therefore I wrote:
We have two systems acting one against the other.
I will correct the above sentence to:
We have two systems acting one with the other.
So it is your words shown in a different way.
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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

MrVibrating wrote:I wasn't aware of the "together hung" translation - does seem more meaningful than "connectedness principle".
I know you are on your own journey of inquiry MrV (aren't we all). But there are perhaps interesting areas of commonality and cross-pollination opportunities in our research and ideas as we forge on. With that in mind I couldn't let your above comment pass by without further detail for your consideration.

I was caused to re-investigate possible alternative meanings to Bessler's "Connectedness Principle" a few years ago. It came about as I went thru for the umteenth time MT and Besslers associated notes to various MT diagrams etc. Clearly he was giving mechanical pointers towards an eventual mechanical PM solution, even if the messages themselves weren't exactly clear like blue-prints would be. If only I could dial in his wave-length to reduce the deliberate ambiguity and perhaps better understand the nuances of the mechanics mentioned. Then I might have a clearer path forward. Or at the very least I perhaps wouldn't take giant and unnecessary missteps that could scupper me from the get-go.

This train of thought was on my mind at the time because of what Oystein, in particular, had found in his research about codes and ciphers etc contained in Besslers written works, perhaps including MT. I had arrived at the conclusion that it was doubtful that that any coded information (Masonic or RC, or Jesuit derived etc) would give a clear Bessler mechanism. It seemed to me that his undoubted use of codes (thanks Oystein) was to 'beef-up' the appeal of his books to a learned albeit secretive sector of society, and display his learning i.e. increase credibility factor to a particular audience.

Anyways, after Oystein, dax, and JC etc showed an undeniable link and correlation (in my mind) to hidden information and alternative meaning in numbers and alphabets that I began to wonder more seriously about Bessler phases, descriptions, and word plays. Perhaps there was more than the occasional unintended double entendres we all do from time to time for example ? I then remembered that Stewart had given a well reasoned breakdown of the literal translation of Bessler's "Connectedness Principle" of MT9. This started me thinking that perhaps thru the vagaries of translation (and previous failure to fully consider this context and possible vehicle for hidden information) that perhaps I had indeed taken a misstep and not reconised a Bessler entendre of real significance.

The following is mainly Stewart's post about the Zusammen Gehängten Principle menioned in MT9, contained in another thread.
fletcher 28th May 2019 wrote:This is what Stewart said about MT9 on April 1st 2007. It's worth reading the original post to see the diagram that goes with it which I do not reproduce here.

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 9001#39001

Stewart wrote (dark blue) : N.B. enlarged font mine for emphasis.

Hi John

First of all, thanks for the copy of your MT book that you sent me. The translations in it are now much closer to my own than the ones I've previously seen (wiki). There are still a few areas that I can help with though, but for now I'll just try and explain NO.9.

Bear with me as this may be a bit long-winded, but I think it's important to understand it...

I'm afraid you had it right before you changed it to what you now have in your book! The translation of NO.9 is good except for the one part in question:

... woferne man nicht auß diesen meinen zusammen gehängten Principio agiret.

You're focusing on the word "agiret" as the part that was previously translated as "connected", but in fact the "connected" part is the words "zusammen gehängten" and the "agiret" is the verb in the sentence and is a German word meaning "to perform/to act" (modern forms: agiert/agierte). "Principio" is the dative case of the Latin noun meaning "principle" here. The two words "zusammen gehängten" literally mean "hung together", but usually these two words together are translated as "connected". In this instance the ending of the word "gehängten" and the fact that it precedes the noun "principio" indicates that it is an adjective of that noun, therefore it is talking about a "connected/connecting principle" or "principle of connecting". So looking at the whole sentence: the subject is "man" = "one"; the direct object is "diesen" = "these [weights]"; the indirect object is "Principio" = "principle". Word for word this translates as:

... as long as one not on these my connected/connecting principle performed.

or, in better English:

... as long as one did not perform my connected/connecting principle on these.

So what Bessler is saying in this whole block of text is that whenever he has seen weights used that are attached to the wheel such as in the current figure, they have not been connected together with straps or chains in the way he has shown in the figure. He mentions Jacob Leupold as an example of someone who has shown a weight principle that doesn't have connecting straps or chains (the attached image is of the engraving of Leupold's that Bessler is referring to). Bessler says that with designs such as this "nothing has been achieved, as long as one did not perform my connected/connecting principle" on the weights. This suggests that knowing his principle of connecting the weights is important. The question is, does he mean that the method of connection shown in figure 9 IS what he regards as his principle, or is it a different method of connection? He ends the paragraph by suggesting there is more to teach about this but that he doesn't want to for now.

I hope I've explained this well enough, but if not I'm happy to discuss it further. Perhaps, as this is such an important piece of text, you could ask Mike Senior to do a translation to see if he agrees with what I'm saying?

All the best,
Stewart


This is how John Collins replied a few posts later (in dark red) ..

Thank you Stewart, you've done a good job, and I think I agree with your improved translation. This is one of the reasons why I have reproduced all these books, to get them aired and corrected where necessary. As you say Ralph, open and mature debate is good and that's what we get here. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Interesting post Stewart, I was never that good at Latin and my German is virtually non-existent. I'll take up your suggestion and pass on to Mike Senior your Latin/German reading and see what he comes up with. Might take a week or two.

I think that Bessler is saying that the accompanying drawing (no 9), taken from Leupold's publication, does not show the 'connectedness principle' that he has discovered.

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re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by Fletcher »

It could be interesting to compare Stewart's translation and thoughts above to those of Mike Senior and JC, at the time ?

The following are Mike Senior translations, at different times (second oldest).
Mike Senior's wiki entry - most recent update wrote:No. 9 Because one has learned that little is to be accomplished with the sphere-wheels like those just now seen in the figures and diagrams, one speculates on another principle, namely: on weights! In all places where I have found weight-figures, these weights are seen to be simple and nothing is attached to the belts or chains. Such is the case with Leupold, but nothing is to be accomplished with his thing unless one acts out of my connectedness principle; but here I do not yet wish to show or discuss the figure for the time being.
Mike Senior in JC's hardcopy MT booklet wrote:No. 9 Because experience shows us that all the ball-driven wheels like those seen in the present figures and diagrams were of no avail, people speculated on another principle, namely: on weights. To be sure, in all the weight drawings that I have found, these weights appear simple and are not connected together with belts or chains, even in Leupold, but nothing is to be accomplished with any device unless my principle of movement is activated: but here I neither wish to show nor discuss the figure for the time being.

Note from JC - The words 'principis agi..t derive, in my opinion, from the Latin 'ago', 'to drive' or 'put in motion', and this translates as 'principle of motion or movement'.
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Re: re: Decoupling Per-Cycle Momemtum Yields From RPM

Post by MrVibrating »

Fletcher wrote:
MrVibrating wrote:
I wasn't aware of the "together hung" translation - does seem more meaningful than "connectedness principle".

It seems almost certain that his grasp of the mechanics improved after the discovery, but to begin with, i'm sceptical that one could chance across a runner unless pointedly trying to accumulate momentum in the first place..

Doubtless he would've been aware of Newton's vis viva as the inertia * velocity product, and this may have informed his experimental aims - and likewise, perhaps, regarding N3. It seems unlikely anyone could achieve an effective N3 break by accident, such as while trying to achieve perpetual OB.

.. snip ..

This is why i've long now concluded that he was indeed trying to distill mV from its negative counterpart - that he recognised that to impel some mass in one direction necessarily means applying equal mV in the opposite direction, the two cancelling out.

.. snip ..

Because that's the core of the solution - the relationship between the potential to perform work, in terms of both buying momentum, and its resulting value to perform further work. That's what PM is.

.. snip ..

We've all known, intuitively since childhood, that momentum is conserved.. apart from when it isn't! Bessler's only real addendum to that is arguably that when it isn't, neither is the potential to perform work!
All good points Mr V, in your context.

If Bessler was indeed simply trying to find a way to accumulate momentum (and I believe he was) that would be his mechanical investigation jumping off point. Same as us. I doubt his starting point would be at the math level of detail which wasn't yet developed into the fully coherent system we have today. He only talks about momentum and force (english words in accompanying MT notes) for example, as to his level of understanding, tho he may have had greater understanding than that. Certainly about leverage for example.

And if he found a way to mechanically create asymmetric torque from imbalance of weights (accumulate momentum) then your points are answered without exploring the incomplete math of the time. But that's just my opinion about how he got on the right track and from what I deduce from MT's context.

All analysis methods to an answer are obviously open for discussion at this time.
Yes, he may not have had our rounded and fully-integrated grasp of the work-energy equivalence principle, but it really does just boil down to leverage, doesn't it? IE. the potential to raise some mass or load a spring or however the energy gain was harnessed. Accumulate enough reactionless momentum, and you have this potential to raise more GPE or compress more sprung PE, than you began with.

Again, the scissorjack on the Toys page could simply be a metaphor for this property, this ineffable 'ability to perform work', since what to the jacks embody but force times displacement?

And this is all i really mean when saying he must've resolved the vis viva dispute before anyone else - because that's all it is, in its basic form; distinguishing the 'work potential' of a given momentum, from that 'momentum' itself.

Still, my working hypothesis for now remains that the jacks interconnect the two hammer toys, or whatever force * displacements they represent, with a power conversion (high displacement, low force input work, into its inverse in whatever the form of output work, which almost inevitably has to be some kind of reactionless acceleration)..
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