Gravity Wheel

[Calloway]

WaltzCee, I certainly agree that there is a tremendous amount of wasted energy in this system. It has to be since the only seen power supply is gravity. Every action should be accounted for and then hunt for that little extra source hidden in the midst that allows the wheel to continue turning. I don't completely know how, but it's in the swing of the pendulum(s). Pendulums have been cussed and discussed forever about their so called hidden source of energy. But after all, pendulum clocks do work. This sort of discussion is really interesting and I enjoy it. On paper they say: It just won't work. The math is just not there to support it! Too much loss in the system to work! But these folks are important in these ventures for technical assistance and we need them. It is when they walk out of your shop shaking their head, and mumbling with a calculator in hand that they know something in the math is missing. This is going to be discussed for years to come. Cheers

[agor95]

Calloway you have the right attitude toward your build project.

Carry on and just enjoy the process.

Mathematical modeling is that; a model. The accuracy can only be checked against a real device. The device will always trump a math's model. As that is the object that will require rebuilding.

There maybe times where a math's model may hint at an improvement. However still a real build validation is required.

The best physical test is when a wheel's rotation rate increases.

[Georg Künstler]

Calloway wrote:

The math is just not there to support it!

The math is there !!
I don't need it anymore, but i will have a look in my history folder and send you the link to the math.

The Physic is there, the concept how to do it is also there, what is outstanding is the real running model.
I hope that my model builder will finish it this week, I will see.

[Georg Künstler]

Hello Calloway

have a look to

page 15 to 17

http://conf.uni-ruse.bg/bg/docs/cp14/2/2-1.pdf


and Complex coupled Systems in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiresonance

and something to Play with
https://www.elmer.unibas.ch/pendulum/upside.htm

[Calloway]

George Kunstler, I remember the Dean drive from years ago. I have seen that kind of action in oscillating types of equipment. You actually couldn't hold it in place. It would break tie downs and walk off and will do so in the direction of oscillation. Certainly glad you are building the design and wish you much success. Remember that your pendulum weights can be of any weight you want to try as long as they are all the same. Heavy is better. They need to push the slider weights like they were never there at 9:00 o'clock for cw. Sliders weights move effortlessly and they unbalance the wheel. Eventually there is gonna be some sort of calculation in what the weight differential has to be on the design between the pendulum weight and the slider weight. But that's down the road. Cheers

[Calloway]

George Kunstler, One more note about the slider weights which I haven't mentioned. Make sure they are heavy enough to give the wheel good unbalance. Install your slider weights and then sit at the edge of the wheel (without pendulums) and work them as the pendulums would by hand making the wheel turn. The wheel should rock past the 9:00 o'clock position easily. Mount and align pendulums. Remember. The wheel doesn't care how heavy your pendulums weigh, they have nothing to do with the actual unbalance. Cheers

[silent]

.

[Calloway]

Hello Silent, Well, I personally don't believe in perpetual motion either. There has to be a driving force, so in this case it is gravity. But then wait a minute.. They say gravity is not a force! So the argument continues. I just enjoy what I do. Cheers

[ME]

Theory...
The main thing to watch out for is the positioning of the sliding weights as I listed on page 2.
You can check that theory by simply drawing it out. Draw the path and see that 9-o'-clock is just way too late to worry about overbalance. Called latency here.
Maybe start at 8 at the latest, but then the working schedule of the pendulum should end well before 10.
Another thing to theoretically watch out for is that those pendulums do not push for free when they hang out of static position. To be checked and tested by giving one of those wheel hanging pendulums a small push.
Energy input is easy to overlook in theory.
Pendulums can operate a clock because the get frequently pushed via a dropping weight timed by the pendulum itself. Those 'math' George mentioned (like Kapitza's inverted pendulums, and resonance in general) also require a frequent input of energy to become a thing.

Only to be proven wrong by some experiment. I think you have a very nice setup there.

The reason I use wire instead of a shaft, is wheel axle shaft interference. You have to go over or under the axle shaft. Maybe someone has a better idea at this point. Look at my first pic very close to see the wires crossing the axle shaft.

Perhaps something to think about for version two. Those wires work because they have each their own layer.

In the same way a rod can either go through the axle or around it when you bend it properly: like a square wave ___|‾‾‾|___
Or actually any shape: If you want you could connect two sides around the rim and circumvent the axle at a greater distance.
Multiple rods can each have their appropriate layer so they can cross like a highway interchange. Or you could use a flat bar to connect those two to avoid pipe-bending and save precious depth of the drum.
Because every solution bring its own twist on the matter: By gravitational effect on that proposed bend it may add a twist to the rod that could interfere with the sliding function.

So maybe wire is just the way to go. When you are going to add more weight to those slider it may cause fatigue when it pushes via such wire.
I think the easiest solution is a circular pulley with a string.

[cloud camper]

OK folks - Calloway seems to be a very nice fellow and I do wish him success here and has worked out a very simple and ingenious mechanism but there are several issues with the concept that need to be addressed.

Essentially this is a design similar in concept to any sliding weight design with the addition of a mechanism to initiate the sliding process.

And it has the same inherent problems of any sliding weight design in that the action requires the wheel to turn before the weights can slide. This in Bessler speak unfortunately is putting the cart before the horse similar to any sliding weight design.

The sliding of the weights does not occur for free here and necessarily sucks power from the wheel momentum to achieve the weight transfer.

This is due to the fact that any sideways displacement of the pendulum bob at the 9 o'clock position is causing the bob to rise - the bob rises due to contact with the sliding weight. This gain in GPE of the bob must then be paid for by reducing wheel momentum. When the bob has gained enough GPE in the sideways displacement it can then overcome the static friction in the sliding weights to effect displacement of the weights. But wheel momentum has been robbed.

The next problem is also similar to any sliding weight design in that the weights slide too late to do any good and to make matters worse do not return to their inboard location around the entire lower half of the wheel.

This unfortunately wastes a tremendous amount of GPE in that the wheel is bottom loaded by the system for no gain since the weights do not return to the inboard position until the 9 o'clock position has been reached.

The bottom loaded weights then must be lifted from the 6 to 9 position causing substantial countertorque to rotation and again this lifting against keeling of the bottom loaded weights is a complete waste of energy exactly similar to any sliding weight design as the weights are not retracted to their more inboard location before the 6 'oclock position and thus bottom load the wheel for no benefit and substantial loss of GPE of the sliding weights which then must be relifted.

The basic concept here is similar to Agor 95's M Turbine idea that used springs and connected sliding weights on either side of the axle to try and achieve the same effect.

These are issues that are identical to any sliding weight design and were identified long ago by many others and do not miraculously go away if a mechanical means replaces gravity as the initiator of the sliding process.

The primary issue is then LATENCY - the weights slide too late to achieve the desired result and only slide because the wheel is turning. This is getting cause and effect backwards and is the cart before the horse issue that Bessler identified as critical.

The secondary issue is allowing the sliding weights to remain in their lowest position from the 3 to 9 o'clock position for no gain bottom loading the wheel. That is we have an extension mechanism but no retraction mechanism. A retraction mechanism somewhere in the 4 to 5 o'clock position is required to keep from bottom loading the wheel for no benefit but no such mechanism exists here.

And as analyzed above, gravity is actually still the initiator of the sliding process as the pendulum bobs - which are HEAVY must be lifted against gravity in their sideways swing to then drive the sliding weights horizontally. Essentially a ramp mechanism as the bob gains height with sideways deflection due to contact with the sliding weights.

And if anyone has tried to push a heavy box up a ramp, one discovers that large energy input is required.

This is then a definite step forward in sliding weight driven concepts but is not a runner as presented - and to Calloway's scientific credit made no such claim.

[Calloway]

Good moring ME, I always read and retain other folks point of view. Thanks for your input and advice! Cheers

[Calloway]

Cloud camper, Thank you for you imput, it is appreciated. However George Kunstler beat you to the point. He already posted your comments a few posts back. Cheers

[Calloway]

ME, Several posts back I talked about timing. Which is pretty much equal in terms with latency. Timing for engines, latency for digital signals mostly. (The weight you see is indeed a 6 oz weight that can be used to move the slider weight pairs. There are 4 per side. But can only be used at a right angle timing, which is at the 9:00 o'clock position. This is the easiest position for the 6 oz weight to move the slider weight pair and still run. However, you can catch the weight at around the 8:00 o'clock but the pendulum weight needs to be increased because of the angle of contact. This increases the torque or unbalance of the wheel. To get the right angle easy timing (9:00 o'clock) you have to shorten the wire between the slider weights. You just have to experiment with the setup. If you shorten one, you must make the other slider pairs the same. Then adjust your pendulum length accordingly.) I just wanted you to know that I understand what your saying completely. Cheers

[silent]

.

[Calloway]

Silent, Well, I wouldn't block anyone. I enjoy different lines of thought. Besides, I might learn something. Everybody is gonna have different ideas and opinions and there's nothing wrong with that. It's all good! Cheers