Success..?

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MrVibrating
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re: Success..?

Post by MrVibrating »

Gotta replicate that shit, or bust it..

OK, the gain's appearing in the rotary solenoid integral. These regulate the distance between weights to lock their combined MoI to a set value as they're changing radius, which in turn gives uniform step heights from otherwise-asynchronous spin'n'brake vs GPE cycles...

However the priority re. MoI control is to keep both MoI's in the s&b cycle equal... which doesn't necessarily mean a constant value..

So, what if we remove MoI control from the GPE interaction - ie. perform basic radial lifts with angular drops, keeping the distance between each weight pair constant, and thus allowing the MoI to vary...

..and then just vary the MoI of the other, unweighted MoI, so that it constantly matches that of the gravitating one?

Here, like this:

Image

..bit of a switcheroo there..

However we also get what looks like an interesting result with it disabled:

Image

..ain't measured either yet - just lining 'em up for now - but those negative loops on the motor integral look a bit tasty, eh?

Maybe i've been shooting meself in the foot with all this MoI-control nonsense..

Measurements later, need whisky..
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re: Success..?

Post by MrVibrating »

!

I'm such an idiot - i initially began implementing MoI control when using just two masses, changing radius together as a pair..

..and for that, it works fine. GPE sans MoI, no problemo..

But what happens when you mount reciprocating pairs of such masses at 90° phase..?

..here:

Image


..so as soon as i mounted two self-regulating vMoI's orthogonally, their carefully-crafted MoI-control loops became entirely redundant! No active MoI control was even necessary in the first place!

Doh!

The hours i spent sweating that shit.. gahh..

..and yet, without it, there's little chance i'd've found the CF-PE gain, if it's real..

So now i gotta measure the 3 rigs above, before knocking out any more... hours more work each, bear with me...
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Post by MrVibrating »

OK, so, looking at it, the only thing the V1 rig did, that V2 above doesn't, is vary the distance between each pair of weights as they change radius.

So now, they just move at equal radial speed, and though this causes their MoI as a pair to vary, their reciprocal pair 90° out of phase are traversing exactly the same MoI contour, and so perfectly balancing the net MoI of all four masses!

If this still doesn't replicate the gain, then it must be due to that otherwise-entirely redundant variation in distance between each weight pair!

Data later.. chow mein time.
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re: Success..?

Post by MrVibrating »

Bloodbath!

Image

Motor = 21.63477788

Brake = -15.77733145

Base Acts = 178.5114139

Upper Acts = 0

Total = 184.36886033

KE Rise = 165.295465

Diff = -19.07339533 J

Nineteen Joules, not dissipated..

This is a robust, stable sim at high precision.. (attached: feel free to lower the freq if not taking data, no feedback multipliers this time)

Make no mistake, this may still be the arse end of the asymmetry, but it ain't unity either..

So why would V1 get close to unity with a TRS of' 1' (was still slightly over tho), where this thing, apparently opens an abyss?

Where'd my fecking energy go?


So maybe displacement between weight pairs is the gain condition then? Only thing the other rig does that this one don't..

May go back to the gain config and try and get some finer detail from that solenoid integral..

I can implement the same MoI-control principles using actuators instead of 'rotary solenoids' (motors), so may give that a shot..
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re: Success..?

Post by Fletcher »

Rebuild the V1 rig again, from scratch, I suggest.

In fact build 2 side by side. One using motors (rotary solenoids). The other actuators, or whatever. Otherwise identical rigs with the same principle as the V1.

Set up the same metering for each and compare. If there is a difference it will show up in the meters.

Having them on the same page and in the same sim makes it easier to see trends developing, or sim artifacts.

IMO.
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Post by MrVibrating »

S'basically what i'm doing mate - still on the arse-end of it, but this is obviously a real CoE break - just look at this latest result:

Image

Motor = 441.8095035

Brake = -389.5829434

Base Acts = 34.66277645

Upper Acts = 0

Total = 86.88933655

KE Rise = 80.716420

Diff = -6.17291655 J

Six J on one rotation.. all i did was raise the input torque..


I think the only consistent explanation is the one outlined in post #1: that rotKE and GPE are decoupled, and it's possible to consolidate (ie. using inelastic collisions) more or less rotKE than the GPE sacrificed in sinking the corresponding counter-momenta..


Thus the hypothesis behind V1 needs revisiting - what factors might we try varying - such as input torque, MoI ratio, TRS values etc. - to get back on top using this rig?

If we can't push this one over too then like i say, i'll go back to V1 and take a closer look at that 'winning' integral and its causes.. but if there is no error then there's no magic either..

Truth is, the 'solenoid' integral in the highest-res results is using a feedback multiplier of 1 billion (1e9) - the slightest deviation from the target MoI causes massive corrective torques, which is why the MoI is held rigidly to its set value of '8', to six zeros... that's how accurate the 'rot sols' integral is.. if that MoI figure wavered by the slightest amount, there'd be massive torque spikes on the plot..

So to me, it looks solid.

But if we can replicate it at will, then it's pretty much wrapped...

The possibility of unmetered torques remains, but would now need to explain both the loss and gain.. in separate sims..


Give it another day or so; either we'll start pulling gains outa V2 here, or else we'll suss out why not..
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Post by MrVibrating »

Using the last-posted sim, i applied what seemed to be good gain settings on v1:

Turns: 0.25
TRS: 0.1 rad/s
Brakes: -100 N-m
Motor Torque: 0.5*G
________________

Motor = 0.245094413

Brake = -0.120380334

Base Acts = 8.911671608

Upper Acts = 0

Total = 9.036385687

KE Rise = 8.816723

Diff = -0.219662687 J


Still a loss..

Look at the loss; assuming GPE unity, 0.245 J of motor work has raised -0.219 J of KE.. so it still seems to be converging to ~200% with lower TRS values, however now we're on the negative side of it..

So as noted previously, whereas V1 can only gain energy, V2 seems to be locked into the exact opposite process, but equally efficiently!

The two rigs are doing the same thing, equally well, but one's over while the other's under..

The working hypothesis, remember, concerns how much rotKE we can spin'n'bang into the system, in relation to how much output GPE must be sacrificed in sinking the associated counter-torques to gravity..

..and we appear to be looking at evidence of a decoupling between these two quantities..

..PE <> KE..

..one FoR's rotating, the other's stationary, and inertial / GPE cycles in each respective frame are asynchronous..



So what's the key condition here differentiating loss from gain modes?

In a nutshell; what's V2 doing oppositely to V1? What factor or dynamic has become inverted?
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Post by MrVibrating »

• OK, well one difference would be that v1 has an OB acceleration constant of G/4, whereas in v2, it's G/2..

• Then for another, the MoI's are 8 kg-m² in v1, but only 0.8 kg-m² in v2 - a 10-fold reduction!

• These factors determine the generated rotKE value relative to the sunk counter-momentum and GPE pissed away..

• A non-dissipative loss can only arise if there's a momentum deficit..

• A gain (PE discount) can only arise if there's a momentum surfeit..

• So v1's yielding more momentum than is being sacrificed to lost GKE..

• And v2's collecting less..

So right about now you should be thinking about the ratio of GPE to MoI... this in turn determines the optimum cancelling torque to be applied by the motor, and why it's G/2 in v2, but G/4 in v1.

The plane of the tempospatial asymmetry seems to intersect those two fields - it's momentum over time as a function of gravitation and GPE, vs momentum over time as a function of MoI and rotKE; different energies for equal momentum*time in each field, due to the accelerating rotating FoR..



TL;DR

I suspect we may need a tad more more angular inertia...?
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Post by MrVibrating »

OK tried varying the ratios of weight to inertia, still on the wrong side of it, can't even reach unity so far..

i'm about burnt out for one evening, plenty of ideas to try but would prolly end up wasting time in this state, nedd slep..
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Post by MrVibrating »

..for anyone wanting a close-up of that solenoid integral:

Image

..you can watch it develop in all these gain configs - it's plotted deliberately and carefully, no sudden spasms or instability; that curve is precisely where it's supposed to be, and is being calculated down to 16 digits internally, 6 displayed..

..what mechanical interactions are causing it - why's there a big sweep of positive radial force there; remembering that it disappeared when the braking phase was disabled (upon reaching TRS the motor was disengaged until the main axis caught up to its speed under OB torque, obviating the need to apply brakes; it then solved to unity)?

It also disappeared when the spin'n'brake cycles were disabled entirely..

So it's definitely dependent upon the s&b cycles..

Why's its efficiency in relation to the motor workload increasing with lower TRS values?

The working theory is basically energy yields over time - power density - as regards fitting more asymmetric inertial interactions into a given range of GPE; lower spin-ups = shorter cycle periods = more cycles per unit time of GPE in/out relative to its constant acceleration / capacity to sink counter-momentum...

..IOW that negative energy bulge surely has to have come from the 'OU efficiency' of the s&b cycles, as a result of having rendered an effective N3 break by cyclically sinking counter-momenta to gravity and accumulating the remainder..

That bulge is CF-PE being harvested, the corollary quantity of rotKE, and it seems to correspond to the motions of the inbound masses, rather than the outbound ones, if i'm not mistaken..

But i really do got to go bye byes now..
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Post by MrVibrating »

Should prolly start by splitting the integral - it's currently both solenoids combined, but if i run separate ones for each we can better see which are doing what, when & where..


..think i've established that there's no alternative but to look at the varying radial speeds and distances between each weight pair.. cuz that's where the gain is, and all that shows up when the weight distance is fixed are losses..
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Post by MrVibrating »

..ooh here's an idea:

• knock up a CF-PE meter!

Calculate CF PE, by at least one good metric, and the see if that bulge on the tail of the solenoids plot really is all transferring over from CF-PE.. yay?

That CF-PE should in turn correlate to rotKE, so should be traceable right back to the KE consolidated from the s&b cycs..
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Post by MrVibrating »

..low-res anim to highlight the evolution of the solenoids plot:

Image
The pink one's free energy!

Perfectly causal at all times, innit?

Comes up a little over the zero line at first, then tucks back under, then dives down and carves out that great sweep of negative energy!

Mechanically, it's corresponding to two clear sources of positive radial force:

• the distance between the two weight-rotors ending in the vertical alignment is increasing in those final stages, thus there's positive CF-PE being harnessed - helping the vertical solenoid push the weights apart

• the inbound mass of the horizontal pair is crossing the 'vanishing point' as it pops into the exact center, so experiencing a reversal of CF force over the final few cm's of radius..

Either or both these conclusions can be tested with CF metrics that can be calculated on the fly - so showing an instantaneous CF force - as well as integrated over radial displacement to produce CF-work integrals..

You can already see it's not malfunctioning, the solenoids are controlled for 'torque', and always provide precisely the correct amount to hold the MoI of each pair constant - just enough to gently push 'em apart, then move 'em back together as they cross the radius..

The 'stray torque' / unmetered torques hypothesis just doesn't seem to fit here - we're hardly dealing with ghostly infinitesimals; the feedback multiplier's set at two-million just for the low-res anim there; a billion for the hi-res measurements, and in either case any instabilities would litter the 'MoI' plot with spikes.. yet it's clean, and solid to six zeros at higher-res...


Hence why i'm so eager to isolate and replicate the result; it looks fully causal, internally consistent, as well as fully consistent with the underlying principles of OU (the effective N3 exploit you see unfolding every single s&b cycle)..

I really think we're there this time..

Kip now; later i'll knock up some CF-PE telemetry - should prolly just fill 'v1' with metrics, give it F*d / T*a plots, really get it tied up eight ways from Sunday.. Correlate rotKE to CF-PE, and CF-PE with that negative bulge on the solenoid integral/s; then we can really get to grips with how to optimise it..
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re: Success..?

Post by MrVibrating »

OK, so we need to recreate the varying radial velocities that are currently harvesting gain in v1.

Every other possibility has been methodically eliminated; this unequal radial velocity between inbound vs outbound masses is evidently carving out a nice fat slice of free pie..

It may be that the optimum radial speed variation for harnessing this gain is different from the one currently delivering the goods; for now, however, let's just try and refine the technique we know works..




So, we now know that this MoI-control trick was only initially useful when using a single pair of masses on a vMoI; once a second pair are mounted orthogonally in reciprocal phase, the MoI remains constant regardless of the individually-varying MoI of each pair, phasing in perfect cancellation...

..thus in the v1 gain config, this MoI-control technique was entirely redundant for its intended purpose; the net MoI would've remained constant without it, regardless...

..however, without that time-wasting, CPU-consuming oversight, we'd once again have come up empty of any gain from the s&b cycles, so, classic 'serendipitous mistake' there..


The priority now is to refine that technique; the most practical solution i've settled on thus far is 'reactive feedback' - where the instantaneous MoI of each pair is constantly recalculated on the fly, applying corrective changes in velocity, force, acceleration or displacement to increment the radial excursions by however much is required to maintain a given target MoI.

These techniques are a bit of a black art - for any working solution, i've little idea how it's working.. it just does. Kind of abrogates the whole problem over to the CPU so i can just clear that hurdle and stumble on to the next... but it's not 'clean' or transparent enough. A simpler, entirely passive solution is possible, with a little thought, so let's have at it..


This simple example encapsulates the problem:

Image

The actuator controls are exposed so you can see how it works:

• actuators are being controlled for 'length'

• the wheel radius is 1 meter, the masses are 1 kg, and the MoI of the wheel itself is ignored - we're only looking at the net MoI of the two masses

• 'point[10]' is the base end of the orange actuator, connecting to the wheel rim, and effectively being used as an angle sensor

• we could use 'wheel angle' instead for this purpose (ie. derived from 'body[1].p.r') - it may even be better to do so - but this works for now


• you can see the combined MoI of the pair goes from a peak value of '1', down to '0.5' as they cross the center, and back up to '1' on the other side..

• ..the objective is to smoothly increase the distance between the masses as they approach the center, decreasing it again as they cross back out

• the distance needs to vary by an amount equal to the square root of two; that is, the current fixed distance between them needs to rise from 1 m, up to 1.414 m, and then drop back down again



So, the 'best' solution here has got to be the one that takes the bull by the horns; first off, why does the MoI vary this way in the first place?

• We know MoI = mass * radius squared

• thus outbound MoI is changing faster than inbound MoI

• this rate of change is a function of instantaneous radius


Thus, in principle, this should be a very simple problem to solve cleanly!

However if i was any good at maths i'd've solved it already, instead of just shorting the 'length' control to the MoI calc.. but no more hillbilly ingenuity, now we need to reduce the solution to a simple equation..


So, what is that equation, then?

There's no 'wrong' answer here - in fact the more you think about it, the more ways you start to consider of approaching it..

It's obviously an eminently tractable problem.


For just a few of the possibilities:

• just one of the current actuators could move both masses; with the second actuator now placed between them; so one moves them across the wheel, while the other regulates their gap

This may not be ideal, since the two sets of calcs could end up producing resonances, over/under compensating for one another.. OTOH it may work fine, just seems less than ideal tho..

• since the wheel radius is 1 m, the peak distance between the weights has to be reached as they pass the 0.5 m mark; hence we could produce a multiplier that increases when moving towards that 0.5 m threshold, and decreases when moving away from it

This however leaves the issue of non-linearity of the MoI variation wrt radius - if the MoI contour's non-linear, then a linear variation in gap distance is still going to see MoI changes..


I think the best option's this one:

• generate a multiplier that is a function of radius, per mr², applied on a per-actuator basis

So each actuator's just doing its own thing, oblivious to what the other's doing or their combined MoI..

Basic objective for each mass:

• change radius as a function of wheel angle

• accelerate when inbound, as a function of mr²

• decelerate when outbound, as a function of mr²

If both actuators are observing these rules individually, then the combined MoI should remain constant, even as their radial speeds vary respectively..

..thus no feedback control required, no third actuator / rotary solenoids, and we can harvest the gain with the same actuators powering the GPE inputs..

This would obviously leave us with a big head-start on harvesting the gain with GPE lifts using radial springs..

No simming knowledge required either; all we need is the general form of the solution..
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re: Success..?

Post by Fletcher »

FWIW, and while you contemplate your above questions and answers.

I suspect that in your V1 rig that some energy input is not being accounted for. Hope I'm wrong on that.

e.g. Your Actuators are length controlled. Usually an Actuator contracts or expands by applying a force over a distance (doing Work).

You might consider replacing the Actuators with either Separators or Rods which can also be length controlled by a bit of creative equationing I should think.

Do you still have the same gains ? If so, it might be that formula driven length changes are not accounted for in the sim energy budgets. IOW's they happen for free because they are length driven and the sim doesn't care where the energy comes from to change the length.

Maybe you already covered this discussion but thought it worth mentioning again, as a comparable test scenario to try and nail down where these gains are coming from.

ETA : it pays to have Integration Steps (Accuracy) on Variable as Wubbly discussed recently when using them as Catches and Latches etc.
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