Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

[Robinhood46]

Waltzcee, thanks for this.
I'm having a bit of a job understanding exactly the path of the weights.
I'm getting the impression that the weights are still moving in one direction and then coming back in another.
Have i missed something?
Can you highlight the path of one weight for one revolution?

[WaltzCee]

I could not do that to save my life. If I recall correctly you're looking at the collective CoM of
8 mechanisms. There were springs involved.

As I mentioned, I didn't conclude the idea had merit. I did think it was rather cool though.
That's a graphic from WM2D. Sometime this year, I hope to get my very first legitimate copy
of that software. When I do I'll explain to everybody how I managed it.

WM2D Is a fantastic tool.

[Robinhood46]

Waltzcee,
I forgot to turn my phone 90° to compensate for the, i don't know why turn of my photo's.
The quality isn't too good, i down loaded it from my application RH46 with a compass.
I hope you can see that the weight only moves in one direction with regard the wheel, it never comes back. It's path is identical in space but not identical to the wheel.
If you keep turning the wheel it will always swing in exactly the same place in exactly the same direction.

[WaltzCee]

It looks a little like a spirograph.



This is a single mechanism that I drove around with a motor. You can see it ends up with a
higher gpe than it started out with. However, as I mentioned I was driving it with a motor.
The sawtooths don't line up over multiple rotations.

I can't imagine any serious conclusion can be reached when some energy source is added
to a simulation.

If you use the web optimizer link where you upload your graphics, you can do some rotations of your pictures. There are other editing functions there also.

[johannesbender]

Waltzcee,
I forgot to turn my phone 90° to compensate for the, i don't know why turn of my photo's.
The quality isn't too good, i down loaded it from my application RH46 with a compass.
I hope you can see that the weight only moves in one direction with regard the wheel, it never comes back. It's path is identical in space but not identical to the wheel.
If you keep turning the wheel it will always swing in exactly the same place in exactly the same direction.

yeah these type of designs are usually ratio's &or speed dependent.

i experimented with the geometrical paths very long ago ,
there should be a post of mine years ago with some images, i never used it in design though.

so in the example picture you gave , here's pictures of what i imagine you mean,i think it is a ratio (usually is ratio) driven design ,lengths of swings ,and wheel speed etc determine the geometrical paths ,
but i don't know if you do it in a different manner.

unless you start and stop at different times to keep it changing it should still be close, it just takes longer ?

i just drew 3 single "swings" in the pictures (left the other out because its logical) , and some pictures with all together in one..

am i on the same thought train ?

good luck.

[Robinhood46]

I think you are on the same line of thought.
In the thread with the following link, on page 3 there are some photo's that Silent kindly corrected the orientation, that show my present build.
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... c&start=30

unless you start and stop at different times to keep it changing it should still be close, it just takes longer ?

If you can understand the principal, shown not very clearly in the photos, then i think this would be what you mean by the stopping and starting at different times.
In the photo you can see 1 weight (lets call it weight A) held at the rim swinging another weight (weight B). The swung weight (B) naturally swings from 8 oclock ish to 4 oclock ish. When weight B arrives at the rim it is then held at the rim and when weight A gets to 8 oclock ish it then swings to 4 oclock ish. They take it turns being held at the rim and swinging the other.
This is just one "pair" of weights.
Connected via a connecting rod is another identical pair of weights. This gives 4 weights progressing around a five pointed star/wheel/construction.
The 4 weights, 2 sticks and 1 connecting rod is at the back of the wheel and there is an identical setup at the front of the wheel. Giving a total of 8 weights, 4 sticks and 2 connecting rods.
There is always at every moment at least 1 weight at every point of the star. Because there are 8 weights and 5 points there are 3 weights that are doing something different to the 5 that equal each other out.
The path of the 3 weights is, swing naturally from 8 oclock to 4 oclock stay at the rim to 8 oclock and then swing to 4 oclock. and so on and so on.
In one way, this doesn't make sense because it is not the actual path of any of the specific weights. This is of no importance when observing the effects made to the wheel. The continual swinging of a weight from 8 oclock to 4 oclock is the only thing that is important. This is the only thing that actually happens. Which weight is doing the swinging is of no importance.
So we have 5 times every rotation a weight that swings from 8 to 4. Nothing else happens, that is it.
If it were to swing from 7.30 to 4 this would give it an offset eliptical path.

[johannesbender]

oh you latch on the rim before and after each swing , and the latching after swinging ,swaps around which weight swings and which weight is latched .

so thereby swapping or taking turns ,swinging and becoming the pivot.

[Robinhood46]

Exactly.
I shared a photo of my preliminary prototype for doing the latching and releasing,which did show promis, but i have opted for a slight variation.
Because i think it may be beneficial to have some control over the timing, i have opted for a method very similar but not with the weight of the latch opening and closing the mechanism during rotation.
The "V" shaped plastic for aligning remains the same and so does the holding mechanism itself. The only difference is that i am extending a curved arm outside the wheel which will be sprung loaded. An elastic band works fine for this sort of mechanism; I have used this method on many models, the elastic band does no work, it's roll is just to hold the mechanism in place and allow it to be very freely, temperally, moved to allow the passage of what it is the mechanism must hold. On the exterieur of the wheel, on the curved arms there will be a bearing which will be controlled be an external runner fixed to the ground, this will allow to adjust the moment of releasing the weight to swing. When the weight gets to 4 oclock the elastic band will allow the weight to be engaged by the mechanism.

[Wubbly]

Reminds me a little of some of Path_finder's animations:

download.php?id=8435&order=user_id

download.php?id=8862&order=user_id

download.php?id=9601&order=user_id

[Robinhood46]

Wubbly,
The second is similar. I can't grasp how the connecting rod changes from one side of the rotating circles to the other.
What i am building has the weights making the same movement as the circles but with the connecting rod connected in the centre of the circles and two weights for each circle.
Having an odd number of points is also important (i think).
4 weights for 5 points will give the progression that i want with regard the wheel.
Thanks for sharing.

[Robinhood46]

I think this may be more likely. By doubling the number of weights you would have 8 knocks and 9 knocks alternatively for every rotation. This can certainly correspond with the "about 8 knocks" that i have always found strange.
These show the "natural" swinging of the weights.
Connecting rods and springs would be used ti accentuate the swinging.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Robinhood46,
a knock or 8 knocks per turn will cause in an Action during your Swinging movment.

You have several posibilities to manipulate this Swinging.
To do that you Need 2 independant Systems. One is acting with or against the other.

Only with this "acting" the natural Swinging path can be influenced.
As we are dealing with Gravity, then you have to manipulate the Speed of travelling of the weight(s).
You Need a Speed difference between up and down.

So the 8 knockings are the clearly heard "Actions" between two Systems.

More to say about this knockings.
A knocking will only occure if you have a function internally acting as a Driver.
So the internal Rotation Speed is faster then the outer Speed.
An internal round System will give you no knockings.

The 8 heard knockings from the eyewitness can not be 8 knockings because the Wheel is described as self accellerating.
The 8 knockings can maybe heard only if the Wheel has reached his natural Speed, end Speed.

A System accelerating from standstill will assume an internal System which is producing torque.

1. an asymmetric repeating torque from the begining, so You have a self starting Version

2. an asymmetric repeating torque after the first Impact(knock), so You have the bi-directional Version. It is like an activation of the function.
It is well balanced when the Wheel standstil.
It is a function which is activated during the first motion.

[Robinhood46]

An update on that version of Bessler's wheel going around all on it's own in my head.
There are no weights on the wooden "sticks" you need to imagine them.
I only have imaginary red paint and this will not allow to see the "advancing" (or at least that is what i have been calling it) of the weights. The truth is it seems to be better to have them going back a step as opposed to forward a step.
The red electric tape is just to allow to see the the weights moving progressively around the wheel. This is what i first called "not going around in circles" and later to not be a "closed path".
The clamp is to hold the wheel in place so as to allow the position,swinging of the weights to be seen and the swapping and switching of the weights connected in pairs of pairs via the "connecting rods" which i see as the "wood choppers" mechanism our whatever you wish to call them on the toy page of MT drawings.
The last drawing is less clear to see, which is why i used just one crossbar "connecting rod".
The rotation is clockwise.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Robinhood46,
at last you have managed to turn around the masses with on off center rotation.
The masses are moved along an egging shape.
What I am missing in your construction is, that it is not set under stress by gravity.

Give it a try !!

[Robinhood46]

Hi Georg,
If you look at photoo n°5 you can see that the top 4 weights are all at the inner position.
Two of the lower weights are also at the inner position and two are at the outer. The COM is at 6 o'clock. Imagine rotating the wheel in this set up 45° anti-clockwise. The force of gravity will apply force to the wheel during the rotation of 45°, when the wheel reaches the position of the photo n°5 it will have enough energy to rotate a further 45°, where, if there was no modification to the position of weights it would stop. Because there is a modification to the position of the weights, with the lower weight moving toward the center and the higher weight moving away from the center it can rotate slightly more than the 45°. When it gets to the position of 45°, it will not have completely stopped. The new set up which is identical to the initial set up will again apply force to the wheel during 45°.
Every 90° the force being applied to the wheel during 45° is slightly more than the force needed to rotate the following 45°. Every 90° an additional force is applied to the already moving wheel.
The weights swing only towards what they were before. As far as Stevins is concerned.