Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

[Robinhood46]

Here is an example of the weights progressing radially around the wheel.
This method would be using the drummers or woodchoppers to move the weights. As one weight moves in another weight would move out. The red tape is to show the path of the weights, and it allows us to see the progression of the weights radially around the wheel. The path would be curved and not straight, as shown by the tape.
Photo 2 and 3 are identical, none of the weights have moved, nothing has changed between them, other than the rotation of the wheel.
For something along these lines to be doable, we would need to bring the weight in with one of the woodchoppers and then take it out with a different woodchopper. Is this why Bessler hid the ends of the weights with a cloth? So as not to give away a detail that would allow us to understand some kind of swapping of the arms.
Where and when would be the best place to move the weights from and to?
Is there another way of doing this which would leave a positive gain for a longer period of rotation?
Would we need 9 sets of woodchoppers, or could we just move one set around the wheel?
Could the weights just roll from one woodchoppers axe to the next at the center and the rim? Just like a relay race giving the baton to the next runner.
How would this behave, if the exact same setup was reproduced, which was continually alternating between being offset by just under 180° to just over 180°?

[Robinhood46]

Anyone interested in my theory of gravity wheels with a fundamental difference, or curious as to what the hell i'm talking about, may find this interesting.
JB was good enough to share a sim, and take the time to make the adjustments to allow me to see things going around on the screen, as opposed to in my head.
I'm not saying this is the answer to the Buzzsaw, but it "should" allow to understand my thinking.
There is a slight, unfortunate, problem with the sim. The problem has nothing to do with the sim itself, because it is great, and i apreciate all his efforts. The problem is that to show clearly my thoughts, it would need to be rotated 22.5°. When the sim is reset, so as we are all looking at the same thing, ( A and 1 aligned at TDC), the position i would have liked the slots to be aligned would have been at L inner, or between 6 and 7 outer. this happens after a few degrees of rotation, ( obviously). So to explain my thoughts, i will explain where to put the weights with the sim set with A and 1 aligned at TDC, just as when you press the RESET button.
This configuration works with 7 weights. A weight needs placing on the inner wheel at;
N P B
E G I
The last weight, which would have been at K on the inner wheel has been transfered to the outer, at slot 6.
DON'T forget this would have happened 22.5° before.
Now, the ratio needs to be set at
Inner wheel Negative 7
Outer wheel Negative 6
When you push RUN;
The weight at 6 goes to L and the weight at B goes to 1
Then 1 to C and I (letter) to 4
Then 4 to J and P to 7
I'm pretty sure i don't need to carry on explaining each weight going where. As long as the intitial placing of the weights has been respected and the ratios are correct it will be self explanatory, every 3rd outer slot takes a weight from the inner and places it back in the slot behind the one it came from.
This "may" allow us to understand the mechanism that moved like a horse's head.
For those who can't or don't wish to play around with sims, maybe JB would be good enough to share a sim with the ratios of
Negative 7 inner and negative 6 outer.
One can observe that every 3rd OUTER slot is allways aligned with an inner, at exactly the same place.

[johannesbender]

a helpfull tip i can give , if anyone has difficulty with trying to show an idea through the use of animation.

you can try searching for a free "stop motion animator" app , either for your mobile phone or pc .

stop motion is pretty simple tecnique to use , you set up your weights or such , take a picture , move the weight or whatever in to next position , take a picture etc etc.

at the end when you took all the pictures , you then convert them in to an animation, apps should allow you take pictures and create an animation.

[Robinhood46]

That sounds like the computer version of flicking through a notebook with staggered pictures. Sounds simple enough, even i might manage to do that.

[Robinhood46]

For those lacking an imagination, this shows the path of the weights.
You just need your imagination for putting weights at both ends of the two short sticks and doubling everything up with an offset.
https://kapwi.ng/c/TsrkVEJH
Once again thankyou JB.

[johannesbender]

my pleasure .

it looks much better now , very interesting.

[silent]

I saved this video on my computer and I must say it's rather captivating. I've watched it over and over and pretty sweet using stop-frame animation (like David and Goliath and Gumby) to simulate the movements.

There is a lot going on there though involving catches and releases if you were try and make this functional. I used to shy away from using electric means in these wheels, but have come to terms that if Bessler was using gravity latches (study MT36), then it would be just fine to use solenoids that fire positionally. One could potentially use mercury switches or pendulums hooked to cams in order to cause the switching, but with today's gyro sensors (like found in smart phones and the Ninetendo Wii controllers) and micro-controllers, it wouldn't be too difficult to rig up something to aid in the switching.

Using electricity to help solidify proof of concept could really help jump start a solution and hey, if you could produce more energy than what the wheel uses, you'd really have it made.

Using Bessler's clues, we HAVE to use springs and latches because when he says the bow twangs and the shotgun shoots - he is banking some energy in the wheel for use elsewhere in the cycle. I don't see how you would reason that any other way.

silent

[Robinhood46]

Silent,
The more i progress, the more i learn. When the weights swing onto the pivots, it may be possible to do them with some kind of a hook. This would eliminate the need for pushing the pivots out of the way at this stage. this was a problem because it reduced the amount of the pivot that was holding the arms. I think i am going to need pivots coming in both sides of each weight to control the swinging. This implies doubling the wheel up to come at them from the other side. Not a difficult task, but i lack material.
I definitely like the idea of electro magnets to be able to get a better understanding of all the dynamics once up and running. I would have thought they would be relatively simple to set the timing, and adjust as needed. Like you say, for proof of concept the electricity bill to run the thing is of no importance. Springs compessed very close to the pivot point as the other weights swing in would probably be able to encourage the next weight to leave the rim a little earlier than would normally be expected. A question of playing with the tension. I don't know how near to the path of the weights in the video is achievable, but fropm my current builds i don't think i was exagerating a great deal. Doubling up the weights will be relatively easy. X 3 or 4 is possible, but it becomes a bit more complex.
Here is a very bad simulation of the same sort of principal that could be achieved with the Buzzsaw. Obviously the point at which the weights change from inner to outer and back would not be where they are in the sim. I'm really crap with computers and just wanted to show how the exchange could occur.
https://kapwi.ng/c/ZfSOC58s
Thanks for some positive feedback; it is encouraging.
RH

[silent]

Well if you want a way to hold and release those short pendulums, how about rigging up electromagnets? Sure they eat electricity, but switchable magnets could help you demonstrate a proof of concept. I think if you added weights to the wheel though, you may be able to just see how it performs on a small scale before making the jump into magnets. Once there is a working proof of concept, you would have all the incentive in the world to work out the mechanical latch and release details to make it happen.

silent

[Robinhood46]

I think if you added weights to the wheel though, you may be able to just see how it performs on a small scale before making the jump into magnets

This is the problem. A small scale doesn't really exist.
Each and every stage of rotation i have been able to verify with weights.
It looks very promising, the problem is to be more sure, i must have the whole thing working completely. When i test with stages (fractions of rotation) i have to approximate the effects of the previous stage. Total objectivity is extremely difficult, as you can probably imagine. I would very much like to just knock up a quick and cheap wheel that would give me the incentive to go the whole hog and worry about the mechanics for latches and locks.
The principal is relatively simple, the construction is a different matter, as you said yourself, "There is a lot going on there though involving catches and releases if you were try and make this functional".
It will take me weeks, to know if the solution is or is not "likely" to be found by this, or a method similar. I'm pretty convinced that this is a novel approach, and the likelyhood of falling on the answer first time is highly unlikely.
Lockdown was lifted monday here in France, the problem is i have an immune system that goes crazy for reasons unknown to the medical world, systemic inflammation has already caused enough problems in a few of my vital organs. If i catch coronavirus the probability that i will never finish my prototype is, lets say, well above 50%. When i am sure that the wheel that may work, that is going around in my head is going around in a few other peoples head's, i can go back to not worrying about health risks.
The assumption that the weights must be fixed and go around with the wheel is the mistake that made us believe PM is impossible. Bessler seperated the two, the weights respect the laws because they cannot do otherwise, and for the weights to respect these laws, the wheel must turn.

[Fletcher]

Often people take a sort of shortcut RH. MrV has the same inherent problem of latching and timing of events etc in his concepts. In sim world he uses actuators and solenoid switches. And attempts to meter their power draw against simulated output.

You could also use solenoids and electro-magnetic switches controlled by a motherboard and power supplied by battery. Then either do some calcs based on the run down time verses the Rotational KE of your wheel over that time .. or ..

Close the loop once and for all - no argument.

Make the wheel run a small generator. Feed the generated power back to the battery set. If the batteries charge up and never discharge then you have a POP of PM.

Then you can look to automate with manual switches etc, and do away with the solenoids and electro-magnetics switches and latches.

At least you will know the concept is workable whilst you work out how to manually replace the parts drawing power.

Perhaps something to consider if the manual latching is proving problematic with no solution in plain sight.

[silent]

What Fletcher said 100%

silent

[Robinhood46]

Often people take a sort of shortcut RH. MrV has the same inherent problem of latching and timing of events etc in his concepts. In sim world he uses actuators and solenoid switches. And attempts to meter their power draw against simulated output.

Believe me, when i go to sim world, it is a very strange place, i can't stay there too long or i would lose the little bit of sanity that i have.

You could also use solenoids and electro-magnetic switches controlled by a motherboard and power supplied by battery. Then either do some calcs based on the run down time verses the Rotational KE of your wheel over that time .. or ..

This is a method i have often thought of (more or less) with the electro-magnetic swithes only needing power to dissengage for the swinging. A common fixed earth for all of them with brushes near the axle and the positive held near the rim to give the needed pulse at the right time, (easy to adjust also for variable timing).
A central weight in a hollow central axis could do this by progressing over some adjustable bolts that trigger the mechanism at the rim via cords, (grindstone?). The problem with this would be the connecting rods between the two short arms would need a hell of a curve to accommoadate for this. This would have an effect of alternating between above and below the hollow axis during rotation. Could they be remplaced with cords that could do some "twanging"? The simplicity of the principal is such that the force needed to do any mechanical work is only at one place of rotation, just after, or as near to as poss, 6 hrs, for releasing the weight held under tension by the compressed spring or the twanged cord. All the rest of the movement is simply the "natural swing of the weights". This is all the kind of stuff that could be easy to understand in sim world.

Perhaps something to consider if the manual latching is proving problematic with no solution in plain sight.

There is still a hell of a lot that needs considering before i can build a wheel that will not be PM, but may allow us to understand if it is doable along these lines.
I can't kid myself, i have very limited funds, this is not a demand for any kind of financing, just another contributing factor that determines my next step. Time is something i have a lot of. maybe some online course to finally get the hang of bloody computer simulators?
If anyone is interested in helping along these lines and has the ability and the time/patience, i would be more than happy to share everything so as they can make a simulation. I hope it is clear that i really couldn't give two hoots who finds the solution. It's also pretty clear, i would have thought, that i have little chance of mastering the simulation programmes.
Thankyou Fletcher and Silent, for the feedback.

[Robinhood46]

I've found a simple mechanisme that will allow for the locking and releasing of a swinging arm.
The image is not a very good one but it allows to understand the explaination.
The green circle represents the pin, peg or swivel that is fixed to the wheel. On my present build these are 8mm bolts with bearings.
This view would be looking through the wheel from behind it. Imagine a glass wheel with green bearings fixed to it.
As the arm with the mechanism, and the weight attached to it, swings in from the left, the brown latch on the right is pushed out of the way. The left brown latch, stops the arm from progressing further. The right latch is pulled back into place by the spring. The arm and weight is locked in this position with regard the green swivel. Once the wheel has rotated, this can then swivel the other end of the arm no problem, (if this is the desired behaviour).
When the desire is to release the arm with the weight, this can be done by either having something fixed to the ground (or structure holding the wheel), that activates the release by means of the bearing fixed near the spring on the latch that disengages the arm, or by another mechanism on the wheel activating the latch. By having one bearing infront and the other behind the latches, one can choose which latch to release and which not to.
The shape of the brown latches in the photo are not very realistic, they are just to show the principal. The yellow block is fixed to the arm firmly to take the weight of the hanging other end of the arm, and act as a stop to hold the closed latches in the correct place. The springs need very little tension, by correctly shaping the part of the latch that touches the bearing, and correctly postioning the latch swivel points, there is no force applied to the srings when holding the arm locked.
If the arm is under tension from a previously compressed spring (or any other means) the resistance to release the arm would still not be great because the latch is running over the green bearing until it's release.

[Robinhood46]

This is the sort of thing that can be achieved by moving the weights independantly to the wheel.
The lower weight swings back, pushing the upper weight out.
The behaviour looks very strange because while the lower weight is swinging back the top of the arm is being taken across by the wheel.
The position of the weights is only to give an idea of mechanism. Springs and additional pairs of weight may be in order.
There are 24 sections to the wheel, although i did this just for demo. I'm pretty convinced a different number would be needed. I didn't add a second pair, it was plenty enough hassle to do with only one pair.
Early days still.
https://kapwi.ng/c/Lge7rVcn