IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?

[George1]

To ME.
-----------------
But ME, as if we starting our discussion just now. Please look again at the beginning of our discussion.

[ME]

Your so-called insights don't make sense and are at the heart of your mistakes since page 1.
I gave you all the answers you need, yet you don't read them.
You still want a discussion, but apparently you can't.
Perhaps it's my mistake and make it too difficult, I don't know.
So I simplify things immensely.
As a start the next question requires a simple copy/paste answer we both should agree on.
Thus to repeat, and I write in bold:

Please indicate the force that causes that block to slide down that ramp.

[George1]

To ME.
------------------------
Dear ME,
I really wonder why do you imitate ignorance and stupidity again. Because our correspondence tends to become an absurd. My question is:"Do you accept the validity of equality 1+1=2?" And your answer is:"White crane spreads its wings." This is not a discussion. This is a comedy.
------------------------
Our team consists of patient people of good will however. So let us start again the related explanations from the very beginning.
------------------------
Firstly, please look again at our post of Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:32. For your convenience this post is given below again.
=======================
Beginning of the post's text
=======================
1) Body 1 is the block, which slides down the ramp.
-------------------
2) The ramp and Earth are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
-------------------
3) The center of mass of body 1 is connected to the center of mass of body 2 by a straight line. This straight line is the line of action of both G and -G.
-------------------
4) Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1. Force G is directed to the center of mass of body 2. Force G is resolved into mgsinθ and mgcosθ.
-------------------
5) Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2. Force -G is directed to the center of mass of body 1. Force -G is resolved into -mgsinθ and -mgcosθ.
-------------------
6) Forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. This is a manifestation of the third Newton's law.
-------------------
7) The absolute value of mgsinθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgsinθ. The line of action of mgsinθ and the line of action of -mgsinθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle 90° - θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
-------------------
8) The absolute value of mgcosθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgcosθ. The line of action of mgcosθ and the line of action of -mgcosθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
-------------------
9) Gravity in this particular case is equivalent to a long stretched spring, whose both ends are attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively. The spring pulls one to another the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 and the two bodies move/slide relative to one another.
------------------
Note. Please look at the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
Most suitable for us in this link is the spring with characteristic number 4.
==========================
End of the post's text
==========================
The post's text above directly leads to the validity of STEP 1 (which was published firstly on Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:28). For your convenience this STEP 1 is given below again.
==========================
Beginning of the text of STEP 1
==========================
STEP 1.
Please look at the link https://www.knowledgeuniverseonline.com ... -plane.php
This is the basic example for a motion of a body on a smooth (friction is negligible) inclined plane. The drawing is very illustrative.
The the body moves without friction (as it is a matter of a smooth inclined plane) and the inclined plane is motionless and firmly attached to the ground. The body exerts a vertical downward force G on the inclined plane. At the same time however the inclined plane on its behalf exerts a vertical upward force -G on the body. Besides G=-G, that is, the two forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude.
==========================
End of the text of STEP 1
==========================
All considerations above are in perfect accordance with basic postulates of classical Newtonian mechanics.
Do you accept the validity of STEP 1?

[ME]

This simply proofs you can't even answer a simply question.

The question was:
Please indicate the force that causes that block to slide down that ramp.

The answer was:
mgsinθ

Agreed or not?

[ME]

Georg, where are you??

I really wonder why do you imitate ignorance and stupidity again. Because our correspondence tends to become an absurd. My question is:"Do you accept the validity of equality 1+1=2?" And your answer is:"White crane spreads its wings." This is not a discussion. This is a comedy.

Glad that we share the same insights about each other.
The white crane spreads it's wings because you didn't ask for accepting "1+1=2" but instead you keep asking acceptance for "G - G > 0".
I really wonder why you copy/paste that same ignorant list over and over again... That is not a discussion. That is the comedy.
I gave you the answer long before, but it doesn't seem to register and that's why you need sub-steps.



To continue
- - - - - - - - - -
So I just assume that you agree that the box slides down with a force "m·g·sinθ"!!
(If not then please say so)


The next thing to agree (I'll try to give it more pace):
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This force "m·g·sinθ" causes an acceleration of that box down that ramp.
Thus that box accelerates with an amount of "g·sinθ".

Example: Say θ=24° and g=9.81 m/s² then the box will go with an acceleration of 3.99 m/s².
And that's how that "body moves without friction (as it is a matter of a smooth inclined plane)".

Agreed?

[johannesbender]

To ME.
------------------------
Dear ME,
I really wonder why do you imitate ignorance and stupidity again. Because our correspondence tends to become an absurd. My question is:"Do you accept the validity of equality 1+1=2?" And your answer is:"White crane spreads its wings." This is not a discussion. This is a comedy.
------------------------
Our team consists of patient people of good will however. So let us start again the related explanations from the very beginning.
------------------------
Firstly, please look again at our post of Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:32. For your convenience this post is given below again.
=======================
Beginning of the post's text
=======================
1) Body 1 is the block, which slides down the ramp.
-------------------
2) The ramp and Earth are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
-------------------
3) The center of mass of body 1 is connected to the center of mass of body 2 by a straight line. This straight line is the line of action of both G and -G.
-------------------
4) Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1. Force G is directed to the center of mass of body 2. Force G is resolved into mgsinθ and mgcosθ.
-------------------
5) Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2. Force -G is directed to the center of mass of body 1. Force -G is resolved into -mgsinθ and -mgcosθ.
-------------------
6) Forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. This is a manifestation of the third Newton's law.
-------------------
7) The absolute value of mgsinθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgsinθ. The line of action of mgsinθ and the line of action of -mgsinθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle 90° - θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
-------------------
8) The absolute value of mgcosθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgcosθ. The line of action of mgcosθ and the line of action of -mgcosθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
-------------------
9) Gravity in this particular case is equivalent to a long stretched spring, whose both ends are attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively. The spring pulls one to another the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 and the two bodies move/slide relative to one another.
------------------
Note. Please look at the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
Most suitable for us in this link is the spring with characteristic number 4.
==========================
End of the post's text
==========================
The post's text above directly leads to the validity of STEP 1 (which was published firstly on Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:28). For your convenience this STEP 1 is given below again.
==========================
Beginning of the text of STEP 1
==========================
STEP 1.
Please look at the link https://www.knowledgeuniverseonline.com ... -plane.php
This is the basic example for a motion of a body on a smooth (friction is negligible) inclined plane. The drawing is very illustrative.
The the body moves without friction (as it is a matter of a smooth inclined plane) and the inclined plane is motionless and firmly attached to the ground. The body exerts a vertical downward force G on the inclined plane. At the same time however the inclined plane on its behalf exerts a vertical upward force -G on the body. Besides G=-G, that is, the two forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude.
==========================
End of the text of STEP 1
==========================
All considerations above are in perfect accordance with basic postulates of classical Newtonian mechanics.
Do you accept the validity of STEP 1?

In mechanics, the normal force Fn is the component of a contact force that is perpendicular to the surface that an object contacts.

For example, the surface of a floor or table that prevents an object from falling. In this instance normal is used in the geometric sense and means perpendicular, as opposed the common language use of normal meaning common or expected.

For example, a person standing still on flat ground is supported by a ground reaction force that consists of only a normal force.

If the person stands on a slope and does not slide down it, then the total ground reaction force can be divided into two components: a normal force perpendicular to the ground and a frictional force parallel to the ground.

In another common situation, if an object hits a surface with some speed, and the surface can withstand it, the normal force provides for a rapid deceleration, which will depend on the flexibility of the surface and the object.

In a simple case such as an object resting upon a table, the normal force on the object is equal but in opposite direction to the gravitational force applied on the object (or the weight of the object), that is, N=mg, where m is mass, and g is the gravitational field strength (about 9.81 m/s2 on Earth).

The normal force for that represents the force applied by the table against the object that prevents it from sinking through the table and requires that the table is sturdy enough to deliver this normal force without breaking.

However, it is easy to assume that the normal force and weight are action-reaction force pairs (a common mistake).

In this case, the normal force and weight need to be equal in magnitude to explain why there is no upward acceleration of the object.

For example, a ball that bounces upwards accelerates upwards because the normal force acting on the ball is larger in magnitude than the weight of the ball.

Where an object rests on an incline, the normal force is perpendicular to the plane the object rests on.

Still, the normal force will be as large as necessary to prevent sinking through the surface, presuming the surface is sturdy enough. The strength of the force can be calculated as:

N = mg cos(theta)

where N is the normal force, m is the mass of the object, g is the gravitational field strength, and theta; is the angle of the inclined surface measured from the horizontal.

The normal force is one of the several forces which act on the object. In the simple situations so far considered, the most important other forces acting on it are friction and the force of gravity.

Physics - What Is a Normal Force?

Introduction to Inclined Planes - Normal Force, Kinetic Friction & Acceleration

Physics - Mechanics: The Inclined Plane (1 of 2) Frictionless

Physics - Mechanics: The Inclined Plane (2 of 2) With Friction

What is FICTITIOUS FORCE? What does FICTITIOUS FORCE mean? FICTITIOUS FORCE meaning & definition

.

[ME]

And with that addition I am now extremely confident that George1 will notice how Fr=0 for his block and totally understand how he misapplied Newton's 3rd law.

[eccentrically1]

I'm not as confident as you are :D

[George1]

To ME, johannesbender and eccentrically1.
-----------------------------------------------
Obviously I do not explain the things in a proper manner. So let us slightly modify STEP 1 for easier understanding of the basic concept. The STEP 1 (modified) is given below.
==================================
==================================
STEP 1 (modified)
-----------------------------------
1) Please look at the link https://www.knowledgeuniverseonline.com ... -plane.php
2) Body 1 is the block, which slides down the ramp.
3) The ramp and Earth are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
4) The center of mass of body 1 is connected to the center of mass of body 2 by a straight line. This straight line is the line of action of both G and -G. (The two forces G and -G will be described below.)
5) Body 1 exerts force G on body 2. Force G has the following properties.
5A) Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1.
5B) Force G is directed to the center of mass of body 2.
5C) Force G can be resolved into mgsinθ and mgcosθ.
6) Body 2 exerts force -G on body 1. Force -G has the following properties.
6A) Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2.
6B) Force -G is directed to the center of mass of body 1.
6C) Force -G can be resolved into -mgsinθ and -mgcosθ.
7) Forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. This is a manifestation of the third Newton's law.
8) The absolute value of mgsinθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgsinθ. The line of action of mgsinθ and the line of action of -mgsinθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle 90° - θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
9) The absolute value of mgcosθ is equal to the absolute value of -mgcosθ. The line of action of mgcosθ and the line of action of -mgcosθ are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle θ to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
10) Gravity in this particular case is equivalent to a long stretched spring, whose both ends are attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively. The spring pulls one to another the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 and the two bodies move/slide relative to one another.
Note 1. Please look at the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
Most suitable for us in this link is the spring with characteristic number 4.
Note 2. Please pay special attention to item 10, which is as if mostly useful for a proper understanding of what really happens.
===================================
===================================
Do you accept the validity of the above STEP 1 (modified)?
Do you have any objections against any of the above items 1,2,3,4,5,5A,5B,5C,6,6A,6B,6C,7,8,9 and 10?

[ME]

4) The center of mass of body 1 is connected to the center of mass of body 2 by a straight line. This straight line is the line of action of both G and -G. (The two forces G and -G will be described below.)

Nope. The bottom of that block touches the surface of that ramp at an angle.
That "connection" you talk about is at angle θ.
Yet it gets pulled straight down by gravity G.

So why "angle θ":
Imagine this block, in a horizontal orientation, drops straight down on that incline.
It will touch that ramp with its right corner first.
While the right-corner touches the ramp, the left-corner is still in the air.
That block will pivot around this right-corner because that ramp resist denting.
With a turning moment determined by the Center of Mass and the distance from that pivot point we can just say that it somewhat keeps accelerating down because gravity is still able to act on that block.
That block stops turning until the left-corner of that block is also stopped by that ramp.
Now, in 2D, this block touches the ramp at two points and this block can't get anything closer to that ramp.

It's orientation is now at angle θ, the same as the slope angle of that incline.
The incline is only able to resist at this particular angle, simply because that block is touching that ramp at that angle and the surface of that incline is pushing back perpendicularly: "90° - θ".

I already gave an example showing the difference between a table, an incline and a wall: here's another situation:
- Would this situation be a pool-table and that block actually a cue-ball, then the incline would reflect that ball at angle "90° - θ" --> the Normal direction. (Be aware of momentum/force differences)

You don't resolve G into those vectors for the fun of it.
The very reason you have to resolve angle θ into a mgcosθ and a mgsinθ is that:

• mgcos&#952; will be deflected by the solid surface. <-- Newton's third only applies here.
  mgsin&#952; will remain untouched <-- That's why that block slides by gravity on that smooth incline.

Do you have any objections against any of the above items 1,2,3,4,5,5A,5B,5C,6,6A,6B,6C,7,8,9 and 10?

Yes I do.

Because item (4) is wrong, item (6) is complete nonsense.
Therefore Item (7) is misapplied.
With items(8) and (9) you have correctly stated that those vectors would be parallel.
Now you have a means to identify where this so-called "-mgsin&#952;" would be in the picture at (1): Look!! It is not there!

Item (10) is a nice exercise, but does not change what's happening here.

Conclusion:

• STEP 1 is not valid.

[George1]

To ME.
------------------------------
1) You are trying to manipulate the audience again and this fact is already obvious for anyone here in this forum. You are watering down your answers and make them vague, unclear and ambiguous. You are trying again and again one and same clumsy manipulation trick.
2) ANSWER EACH OF ITEMS 1 -- 10 SEPARATELY AND NUMBER EACH RESPONCE!

[eccentrically1]

Wow, ban this guy already Scott. I'm pretty sure ME doesn't need to manipulate us. We all (except for some) understand what's going on here. It's a conspiracy of ramps!

[George1]

To eccentrically1
----------------------------
1) You are pretty sure ME doesn't need to manipulate us? Where from are you so sure about this, you old agent of the big mafia?
2) And is that all you can do -- to ask for banning?

[johannesbender]

To ME, johannesbender and eccentrically1.
-----------------------------------------------
Obviously I do not explain the things in a proper manner. So let us slightly modify STEP 1 for easier understanding of the basic concept. The STEP 1 (modified) is given below.
==================================
==================================
STEP 1 (modified)
-----------------------------------
1) Please look at the link https://www.knowledgeuniverseonline.com ... -plane.php
2) Body 1 is the block, which slides down the ramp.
3) The ramp and Earth are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
4) The center of mass of body 1 is connected to the center of mass of body 2 by a straight line. This straight line is the line of action of both G and -G. (The two forces G and -G will be described below.)
5) Body 1 exerts force G on body 2. Force G has the following properties.
5A) Force G is applied to the center of mass of body 1.
5B) Force G is directed to the center of mass of body 2.
5C) Force G can be resolved into mgsin&#952; and mgcos&#952;.
6) Body 2 exerts force -G on body 1. Force -G has the following properties.
6A) Force -G is applied to the center of mass of body 2.
6B) Force -G is directed to the center of mass of body 1.
6C) Force -G can be resolved into -mgsin&#952; and -mgcos&#952;.
7) Forces G and -G are opposite in direction and equal in magnitude. This is a manifestation of the third Newton's law.
8) The absolute value of mgsin&#952; is equal to the absolute value of -mgsin&#952;. The line of action of mgsin&#952; and the line of action of -mgsin&#952; are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle 90° - &#952; to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
9) The absolute value of mgcos&#952; is equal to the absolute value of -mgcos&#952;. The line of action of mgcos&#952; and the line of action of -mgcos&#952; are two parallel lines, which are both inclined at an angle &#952; to the common line of action of forces G and -G.
10) Gravity in this particular case is equivalent to a long stretched spring, whose both ends are attached to the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2, respectively. The spring pulls one to another the centers of mass of bodies 1 and 2 and the two bodies move/slide relative to one another.
Note 1. Please look at the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
Most suitable for us in this link is the spring with characteristic number 4.
Note 2. Please pay special attention to item 10, which is as if mostly useful for a proper understanding of what really happens.
===================================
===================================
Do you accept the validity of the above STEP 1 (modified)?
Do you have any objections against any of the above items 1,2,3,4,5,5A,5B,5C,6,6A,6B,6C,7,8,9 and 10?

The thing is though , you are using newtons laws as the basis for your proposal.

And Newtons law of gravitation , within the gravity field of earth , must show you that G is pointing downwards towards earth , earth being the biggest primary source of G here.

You cannot say , that G points towards the centre of each object , in the same context , because you also state that the earth is part of this construct .

Only if you remove the earth or specify that G is something else , can people even begin to accept anything else as even an imaginary scenario.

But you simply cannot have it both ways.

Therefore ME's objections are valid , and you asked if he agree by the way , so dont get angry because someone disagrees with you , a discussion is not dictated.

[ME]

To ME.
------------------------------
1) You are trying to manipulate the audience again and this fact is already obvious for anyone here in this forum. You are watering down your answers and make them vague, unclear and ambiguous. You are trying again and again one and same clumsy manipulation trick.
2) ANSWER EACH OF ITEMS 1 -- 10 SEPARATELY AND NUMBER EACH RESPONCE!

Thanks for your projections.

I answered your item 4 in full.
I seems you can't handle any explanation.
You make that perfectly clear by trying to attack me personally and not indicate where I possibly made a mistake.

Anyway, here are the first three:

1. Please look at the link https://www.knowledgeuniverseonline.com ... -plane.php
   
   Yes I looked, please locate the vector: -mgsin&#952;
2. Body 1 is the block, which slides down the ramp.
   
   It slides down a ramp because of force "mgsin&#952;".
   There is no force "-mgsin&#952;" that counters it because that would mean it would not slide.
3. The ramp and Earth are firmly attached one to another thus forming one united whole, which is called body 2.
   
   Let's make it a glacier.