Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

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WaltzCee
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by WaltzCee »

If you enroll in some universities free online course you will be a student and eligible for
working models student Edition. I think that's only $50.

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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

Tarsier79,
If i remember correctly, Blender allows you to make 3 dimensional componants and when you put them together, they respected gravity.
I don't have enough experiance with it to be sure, because of my "carte graphique" i think, but i would have thought that it is way better than Algadoo in many aspects. Not only because of the addition of a third dimension, which is a very handy thing to have, but also with regard the precision and the solidity of the componants and the functioning.
Blender allows us to make each and every componant of Bessler's wheel and assemble them as though it was a real build.
Will it give us a correct representation of each and every motion is another question.
My last sim, with Algadoo, is unbuildable in the real world, i think it would also be unbuildable with Blender. Playing with collision layers allows us to make componants invisible to each other, which i don't think is possible or that Bessler himself managed to achieve. This does allow us to find, or at least try to find, a working principal, which can then be played around with to make buildable.
I will need to look further into this, because taking my crappy computer to pieces to add the card for the seule purpose of running Blender, which will not allow me to do what i want is totally pointless.
If simulators don't allow us to construct wheels with the arms of the weights swapping swivel points, then is this not more the reason to try to achieve this?
Once a mechanism has been made to effectively allow this, then there are probably hundreds of different ways of applying this that have not yet been tried, at least not yet in my opinion, because the attempts over the past that do incorperate this are very few and far between.
The principal of Bessler's wheel is easy to understand, hence his efforts to not let anyone see it running. Once we know what is needed to make it work, we will then be able to find the mechanism that will allow it to be achieved.
I'm not having much joy with Algadoo, as wonderfull a programme as it is, it isn't suitable for creating this mechanism, or i'm just no bloody good with it.
From what i understand this may be doable with wm2d by simply, only activating the swivels within a certain scope of rotation. From 9 oclock through to 3 oclock they are activated as swivels and from 3 to 9 they are not (clockwise rotation). I don't have wm2d so i cannot be sure.
I think i will be going back to physical builds, because as much as it was interesting to work with simulations and animations to get a better understanding of how everything comes together during rotation, they don't allow me to effectively create the principal that i still like to think has a lot of promise.
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Re: re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

WaltzCee wrote:If you enroll in some universities free online course you will be a student and eligible for
working models student Edition. I think that's only $50.
That sounds pretty good.
Fifty quid is certainly cheaper than the thousands of bits and bobs i've been buying over the years for real builds.
My son is a studant at university so i can buy it for him. I'm sure if i ask him nicely he will let me borrow it.
The bad news is, i will not have a clue what i am doing, so i will be posting questions on here every hour for about a month. You have been warned, and we will all know it is Waltcee's fault for giving me the tip.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Wubbly »

Nice sim Robinhood.

Can it be built in WM2D?

Fletcher gave his take on that question here: https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 214#177214

Maybe it was hard to understand what he said because the term "ActiveWhen" probably has no meaning in Algodoo.

And didn't MrVibrating build something similar on one of his threads here: https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 805#175805

If you can get a student version of WM2D you could spend some time learning the program to see if you want to attempt a build in that program.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

Fletcher did share his opinion "Not that I know how to do effectively.", and he also spoke about " Rods will still work on Fixed iterations but joints will sometimes miss or explode the program because they try to turn on or off between iteration steps."

MrVibrating did show something very similar with motors which are turned on and off, which does sound logical, because motors are generally equiped with an on and offable function.

I don't have the programme, so a lot of this is chinese to me, which is why i'm hesitant to spend a few months getting to know another programme without the certitude that it will allow me to achieve what i want. . I don't know what i'm talking about with regard WM2d, because i have no experience with it.
MrVibrating's point "You're thinking too practically for a sim, but yes, could do it that way.." is a good point.

From what i gather, the answer is yes it is doable but it's a pain in the arse.

Anyhow, thankyou to everyone for their advice/opinion.
I've decided to get a new computer which will allow me to run Blender correctly. I think Blender will allow me to build a 3 dimensional wheel, which even if it doesn't give me a clear cut answer, it will give me the details of the componants for a real build.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Wubbly »

Here's a version based on 'square' geometry.
Attachments
RH01 v1 animated GIF based on square geometry
RH01 v1 animated GIF based on square geometry
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

Excellent Wubbly.
That certainly looks more effective than my attempts with Algadooo.
Can it be turned at higher rpm without falling to pieces or switching to crazy mode?
Can you apply forces to the arms near the swivel points without the arms being levered off the swivels?
For example.
MT13 is just in need of someone at the top, to lift the weights for it to be a runner.
If we are not too greedy with the lifting, maybe a sweet spot can be found with each swinging small weight taking it's turn to lift a big weight.
What is the optimal length of arm? Number of arms? number of swivel points? Path of the small weights per cycle?
I can't get any usefull information from Algadoo, other than the visuel aspect of how everything would interact "if" my imagination isn't too far from reality.
My videos are just animations to share my thoughts.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Wubbly »

Here's a more detailed explanation and a video.

Conditions:

The wheel rotates counter clock-wise.

A rectangle with two weights attached to each end.

Four rod locking constraints that turn on and off at appropriate angles as the wheel turns. They are attached to the main wheel and to the weights. The rod locks are not shown.

------------------------

Operation:

A Rod lock is initially engaged at P2 at the 12 o'clock position.

Blue Weight swings from P1 to P3 through the green arc.

Wheel rotates 270 degrees. P3 is now at 12 o'clock.

Rod lock at P2 is disengaged and Rod lock at P3 is engaged. Red Weight swings from P2 to P4 through the red arc.

Wheel rotates 270 degrees. P4 is now at 12 o'clock.

Rod lock at P3 is disengaged and rod lock at P4 is engaged. Blue weight swings from P3 to P1 through the cyan arc.

Wheel rotates 270 degrees. P1 is now at 12 o'clock.

Rod lock at P4 is disengaged and rod lock at P1 is engaged. Red weight swings from P4 to P2 through the blue arc.

Wheel rotates 270 degrees. P2 is now at 12 o'clock. The wheel is now 'Reset'.

------------------------

With each swing of the weights you 'gain' 90 degrees so the wheel only has to rotate 270 degrees to set up the next swing of that mechanism.

There are four swings before the system resets, and each rotation you only need 270 degrees to set up for next swing, so 4 x (3/4) = 3 rotations.

So with this square setup and four swings, you need 3 wheel rotations before the system resets.

The rod lock/unlock mechanisms will not use a (modulus angle, 360), they will use a (modulus angle, 1080).

And then figure out where in those 1080 degrees of rotation you need to turn on/off each of the rod locking mechanisms.

The sim uses invisible 'marker' circles that are backed off from zero degrees a certain amount for each mechanism. An invisible output meter tracks the orientation of the marker circles with a (mod 1080) adjustment, and the ActiveWhen statements of the rods look at the output meter to determine when to trigger their lock and unlock.

There is a background square attached to the main circle and is not shown. This is used as a stop mechanism instead of the ring and allows better locking control of weights at the end points of the swing.

The second part of the sim adds springs that are Active and Not Active based on certain orientations of the wheel (mod 1080).

Observations:

With a square geometry you can only have 3 mechanisms. If you add a fourth mechanism its movement will overlap one of the other three.

With a triangle geometry, you can only have 2 mechanisms before duplication becomes an issue.

If you had a 6 sided polygon, this would be two triangles so you could probably only have 4 mechanisms until the mechanisms started to become duplicates of each other.

A 7 sided polygon could have 6 mechanisms before one would duplicate another.

If you run the sim at too high an angular velocity the lock/unlocks miss their correct lock position because the weights have not fallen into position yet. The lock will still occur, but not at the edge of the wheel, and the sim starts to fall apart at that point.

Possible improvement would be a different spring system that is perhaps more mechanical so the spring disengages after the extension.


Youtube video here: https://youtu.be/iRdxbqZvb4s
Attachments
XRH01 v1 Simulation.TXT
XRH01 v1 Simulation - Script file to build the model in WM2D.
(89.11 KiB) Downloaded 77 times
XRH01 v1 - RH46 Simulation Geometry
XRH01 v1 - RH46 Simulation Geometry
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by agor95 »

Thank You for the sim.

You have addressed the main question by speeding it up and then letting it free run.

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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

That certainly puts things into perspective.
I may well be flogging a dead horse, but until i'm convinced it is really dead i'll keep at it. It is much easier when they stink to high heaven and they have maggots coming out of their eyes, than when they may just be asleep.
The swinging of the weights in this manner will not give us PM, this is clear. They slow the wheel down.The distribution of the weights around the wheel and the number of points they swivel on, has an effect on the rate at which they slow it down.
If we can establish the best configuration, which slows the wheel down at the slowest rate, by playing with all the different factors. We can then try to get them to each do a tiny bit of work, which keeps the wheel out of balance.
"The buyer buys"
This implies that there is no stealing going on, energy is spent, and the ROI is positive.
This will not give us any energy to turn the wheel but it may allow us to buy some that will.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Tarsier79 »

If the circle at the end of the rod were the weights, you can see 2 are always being lifted on the right, while 1 falls on the left. It looks like the horse is running in the wrong direction.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Wubbly »

Good observation. But the circles at the ends of the rods are the weights. The rectangles connecting the circles have minimal mass.

I forgot to turn on display of system COM. Too bad I can't do that programmatically and forget about it. It would have shown the COM on the right hand side of the wheel.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Robinhood46 »

If they are the smaller weights and they are doing the buying, which is what i think, then the fact that the COM is always on one side (the wrong side) isn't really the main concern. The main concern is how far is the COM from the center, how much are they spending?
And, what can they buy at this price?
With the simulation Wubble shared we can see that, if they are the buyers, as they are, they are paying a fortune and they haven't bought jack.
The COM varies somewhere between reasonably over in the wrong direction and way too far over in the other direction robinhood46 what the hell are you talking about.
How near the center, the wrong side, can we get the COM?
Can the swinging allow us to buy enough, to cover all the costs and make a few pennies?
Something along these lines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veOzLl4b9Gg
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by Tarsier79 »

So, Wubbly should be able to measure the KE of the swinging weight at the end of its swing, vs the height difference of the 2 overlapped weights before the swing starts. I don't see any energy gain here.
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re: Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

Post by agor95 »

Hi Robinhood46

When I see an idea like this I ask myself; What can be done to improve the design?

It would be good to kick the top pendulum to the other side instead of waiting for it to swing.

Also when the pendulum arrives for it to be captured.

The trick is to store the C.F. of the weight as it moves down and around it's lower arch.
The pressure against the wheel wall could be captured and released to kick the pendulum.

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