Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

[Tarsier79]

What is the difference in your two weights? What is that X distance they travel on their pivot?

[Robinhood46]

If you want to do the maths, which i don't, any distances travelled you want you can measure from the video, or ask specifically which detail you want. The size of the thing is 4m from centre to extremity.
The weight of the arms holding the weights are, 0.12 kg for the heavy weight's arm and 0.3 kg for the light weight's arm.
The weights themselves are; 1.964 kg - 0.589 kg

The forces being applied to the wheel during the swinging of the heavy weights are a bit too complex for me, and i don't know if, or how, they can be extracted from Algodoo.
Playing with the weights does change things for the better and for the worse, but the changes need to be considerable, proportionately.
I think springs with additional locking releasing mechanisms would be more advantageous than changing the weight's mass. The position of both weights in relation to each other and the frame, in both of their positions is also more likely to make things more, or less favourable.
Locking and releasing mechanisms are a bit of a pain with Algodoo, or I'm just no bloody good at it. I just can't get them to be precise enough, or to be as responsive as in the real world.

[Robinhood46]

So i have managed to use this principal and turn it into a wheel with the fundamental difference. By using a previously shown mechanism, which i think i referred to as the "workers" or the "runners" or something along those lines.
The path of the weights does look promising. the synchronisation is pretty crap, which is what i had already found when using four arms. Doubled up with an additional crossbar would create one crossbar working while the other is coasting (with all the weights at the inner position).
Maybe five arms with six smaller weighted arms would be better, for each crossbar, to achieve a decent synchronisation?
The lifting of the weights at the bottom isn't needed every time with every pass. Maybe doubling up the weights (heavy) to overcome this and lose the problem of synchronisation, irrespective of how many arms?
I can't run it any faster, the latching/releasing mechs can't handle it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPchnK-JeUA

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Robinhood46,
if you follow the path of the weights then you should detect
1. different speed of the weights
2. an unround path movement of the weights, that movment I have described as egging.

So you have an overlay of moving weights. The most problem I see in the synchonisation of the movement.
But in your actual synchronization you will get the back torque.

All in all a good try to solve the Bessler riddle.
For me this construction is too complex and I think not that a carpenter's apprentice could make such a construction.

[Robinhood46]

Hi Georg.
I think it appears far more complex than it actually is.
A lot of the complexity is due to the lack of the third dimension in Algodoo.
If you were to get rid of the crap needed to make it function, i think you would find that it is very simple and a carpenter's lad would not have much difficulty to build it.
What i find promising is that something along these lines could satisfy many of the eye witness accounts and a hell of a lot of Bessler's recorded comments. This is obviously what many of us think when we try new methods, so it has little meaning.
I think it is way too interesting to focus on it not being a runner, and abandon all hope. There are a multitude of variables which need to be played with, which may achieve our goal. This too is a common situation PM seekers find themselves in, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that i intend to flog this horse for a while, because i don't think it is dead.

[Robinhood46]

As i suggested, doubling up the weights eliminates the synchronising problem.
I would very much like to rotate it a bit (lots) faster, but Algodoo wont let me. I needed to lower the little arms that pull the heavy weight over and up (which i don't like) to allow for the swinging at every turn, because of the additional weights.
The weights certainly do some "working in pairs", "one moves in as one moves out" and a bit of "swapping of places" too, although not exactly in the most optimal manner. The springs could be more powerful, if the locking/releasing mechanisms were less crappy, and i think the lifting of the weights is next to nothing and very badly timed. Maybe the resting angle (outer position) needs to be different, so as to make a more direct lift?
An additional mechanism may allow the swinging to be a far amount later also. Still lots to play with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_6sY9tL0ls

[Robinhood46]

I managed to get the thing to work with the mechanisms on the arms that progress round the wheel, instead of on the crossbars, which are fixed to the wheel. This enables the five weights for the five arms, as opposed to the four, in the previous video. The mechanism is very similar to one of my previous videos, which was when i was still sharing mainly animations.
The weights, with the mechanisms, modifies the forces being applied to the locking/releasing mechs, which means i have to slow the rotational speed down, or re look at the mechs, which is a pain in the butt.
I think it is possible to get the weights at the six o'clock ish position to lift toward the rotational direction, as opposed to backwards, as in the video. This is a bit more complicated to achieve but may be worth the effort, (additional locking/releasing mechs). With the weights themselves always rotating/swinging in only one direction, could this give the missing force, which doesn't appear to have the need to be great.
Another thought, if the heavy weights were on folding "A" frames, maybe they could be lifted by springs, within the A frame, which cannot be used at present because of the solid connectivity between the independently moving arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlEY1vvOh28

[WaltzCee]

Hello RH,

I haven't been following your work. Please excuse me If you've covered this.

• What is causing the weight to lash out at the top and pick up at the bottom?
  Are these displacements driving the wheel's rotation.

You're doing excellent work

[Robinhood46]

Hi WaltzCee,
The arms take it turns to swing back (in relation to the wheel) and the actuating arm fixed to the swinging arm pushes the top weight out, by pulling on the curved arm. The other actuating arm, which is fixed to a different arm, lifts the weight on the swinging arm. It is a bit difficult to see, but if the swinging arm is at 6 o'clock, the actuating arm that is fixed to it and not to it's heavy weight, is at 11.45 o'clock. In the video it pretty much stays at 12 during the swinging.
You cant see too clearly because the five rings with the weighted arms and the actuating arms are all on top of each other. They have different collision layers for the purpose of construction with the simulator. In the real world they would simply be hanging from the central axis with a "tail" that is wagged when the arm swings.
I hope this makes it clear.
If you run the video at 25% speed you should be able to understand how each mechanism works. I will be more than happy to answer any other questions if you have any.

"Are these displacements driving the wheel's rotation."

Now that would be nice.
I think this is the nearest i have got so far.

[WaltzCee]

I'm going to try the speed reduction. Humm, looks like you got a promotion. I think I understand "the fundamental difference".

I'm in the process of getting a student copy of WM2D. There are 4 ideas I want to model. One of them uses a prime mover, adds energy to the wheel by lifting a weight.

I'm kind of excited I'm moving forward with some of these projects.

If you get to the point you think you want to launch an enterprise I know venture capitalists.

[Robinhood46]

IF i had a better computor, I would be using Blender.
WM2D although better than Algodoo, still has the disadvantage of only having 2 dimensions. From what i understand with WM2D you can command independent objects to do and to not do things, at specific times or places. Algodoo doesn't have this.
I would have thought incorporating a simulation of the mechanisms needed for the fundamental difference would be possible with WM2d. The "movable pegs" Bessler referred to need the third dimension to be effective in my opinion.
If you watch the last video, you can see the problem created by the lack of the third dimension. The spring loaded locking mechanism at the end of the arm, the force they need to release the following arm is way more than would actually be needed. If i reduce the force of the spring, the arms are not held during their full circle around the rim. If I increase the force of the spring, to firmly hold the arms and run the wheel faster, the latches are released way too late. The same problem arises when i try to increase the masses of the weights.This is due to the springs force being needed to do work against all the forces being applied to the locking mechanism during rotation. The fact that the arms with weights and actuators are not on the same arm, the locking mechanisms are forced in both directions, at different points of rotation. With the additional dimension, the springs and mechanisms for locking/releasing them, will need much less effort to correctly function. Once the peg engaged in a hole, all of the work is done by the peg,with no force whatsoever on the spring.
The arm falling back, which swaps places with the one behind it, needs to do this far more effectively than i can achieve with Algodoo. I have already built a couple of real builds in the past, which did this, and far more efficiently than in the simulation. Unfortunately, at the time, i wasn't anywhere near where i am now with my thoughts.

"I'm kind of excited I'm moving forward with some of these projects."

The simulation world is even worse than the physical world, for some aspects of seeking PM, and way better for others. I'm sure you will have fun.

"If you get to the point you think you want to launch an enterprise I know venture capitalists."

This doesn't interest me the slightest. I would much prefer someone who thinks being richer is the most important thing in their world, finds the answer before me.

[WaltzCee]

Money's just a tool. It could get you a better machine.

I've used the demo copy of WM2D. I've never used scripts but you can turn objects
on and off. It may not help but if you look at the projection of 3d to a plane then model
that projection. I want to SIM my ideas to see if they confirm my bias.

One idea is a mechanical explosion. I have weird ideas.

When I see that path in your video what is that? Is that a system com? I've been studying
your model and have some thoughts but I need to look at it some more.

[Robinhood46]

"One idea is a mechanical explosion. I have weird ideas."

Sims are excellent for visualising weird ideas.

Often we can only picture independent aspects of interconnecting systems with our imagination. The sims allow us to bring all the confusing thoughts together and see clearly how far from reality our thoughts really are. Sometimes we learn that we are light years from reality and other times, pretty damn close.

"When I see that path in your video what is that? Is that a system com?"

I'm not too sure what you mean by "a system com".
If you mean centre of mass, of the whole system, then this is what i would like, and hope it to be.

"I've been studying your model and have some thoughts but I need to look at it some more."

Without reading the thread from start to finish, if you watch the videos I've posted over the last year or so, you may well be able to get a better understanding of my thoughts. It took me a while to get where i am now, but the confusing configuration I had imagined back then, doesn't give me the impression of being light years away from reality.
I have obviously a bias, and I may well be delusional, but i like to think that what i imagined back then is now getting closer. Once it enters our atmosphere, gravity will inevitably bring it down to Earth. Either that, or it will be completely disintegrated and i will need to let my imagination roam freely in the vastness of the universe in search of another crazy idea, to waste some more time.

[daxwc]

Walt:

"One idea is a mechanical explosion. I have weird ideas."

Better yet is controlled imploding.

[WaltzCee]

Yes, RH, I did mean system center of mass. Sims are an excellent tool limited by a
person's imagination. I think you have that in spades. My guess is that's what veered you
to the course you're on. And your idea has evolved. That is so normal. Takes persistence.
You've demonstrated you have that quality too.

I'm interested in your idea so that maybe I can give some input. Your present video is a
sufficient description of your idea.

Controlled implosion¿ I had a SIM that imploded but I not by design. I had no control over
it. The results were astronomically tornadic. Why do you think a controlled implosion is a
way to go, Dax?