MT 24 Magic Pulsation

[thx4]

@johannesbender,
It's more meaningful, thank you.
When I look more closely I see that only the rod that holds the red weight fits into the axis (axis-shaped cage), the others pivot.
With several people, we end up seeing things more clearly, that's the advantage of sharing. :)

@RH46, I still haven't understood the fundamental difference, but I'm fast approaching my 70th birthday, and I must admit that I haven't missed it so far, but I wouldn't want to miss it lol. I'm looking, I'm looking...
A++

[johannesbender]

2.jpg

More or less what it appears to represent , however , some thing that is not clear , is whether that's 1 solid hub or 2 , and whether the rim/drum are part of the inner or outer hub.

[Robinhood46]

That looks great JB, is it with Blender?
I'm more inclined to think the blue weights in your image and the red dots in THX's, aren't supposed to be weights. They are just interconnections of the three rods, which are all free to pivot and slide, when the exterior weights move radially. The other end of the rod crossing the centre does the magic.
What magic does it do? i haven't got a clue, but it would correspond better with many of his words/clues and the way he modified his name.

[johannesbender]

yes its a blender file , here you go

MT24.zip

.

A big thing about the wood cuts , is its not easy to determine exactly what connects to what sometimes because of the 2 dimensional aspect that excludes depth.
For instance the inner weights/whatever one presumes it to be , can be connected to the drum/wheel or the spokes, but you cant determine which.
The diametric weights can be coming to rest against the spokes or actually just hanging on the pole limits.
The secondary disc with the connected lever arms may be part of the hub or separately rotatable.
Bessler mostly drew weights same size ,it is only a few times he mentioned or indicated certain weights being heavier or larger than others ,so its difficult knowing exactly whether some are heavier / larger if he doesn't specifically indicate.

Most things are unclear , and seem open to interpretation imo , anyone could be right.

[Robinhood46]

I certainly don't think we can consider that Bessler was showing us how to make a runner with MT24.
I think he was telling us that there is something about it that would make a runner. The difficult part is working out which aspects of it are needed, which aspects aren't needed and what needs to be modified and added to complete it.
MT25 is the same thing but different. MT25 can't function if all the connections a made with rods, one of them must be a chain or rope, or they wouldn't fold. Maybe they could be rods, if, as JB said, "The secondary disc with the connected lever arms may be part of the hub or separately rotatable." This would allow the swinging of the arms and apply force to the separate hub.

[preoccupied]

Any comments about my idea? I know it's like the opposite of what you guys are talking about. My wheel turns counter clockwise. I don't know if it's hard to understand. A spring stores energy and releases it on one side. So gravity energy pushing down on the right applies force to the left side by storing the rights energy in a spring first and then releasing the spring on the left side. If this works it could generate electricity without using fossil fuels. I'm worried about it effecting the Earth's orbit. But it might not be a big change. And it might be worth it because of global warming. Instead of charging a patent fee for building the device, I would try to ask Congress to give me a 300% tax on the electricity produced and I would try to get an extension on the patent tax so that it lasts longer than 20 years. The electricity would be super cheap so 300% tax on electricity to pay me would up the price only a little. So the electrical grid would have to charge for a profit and maintenance of the grid but it has no fuel cost so the electricity would be super cheap before the tax.

[Tarsier79]

Hi P.

MT24 will happily turn CCW, providing you give it incentive to do so. A working wheel will not affect the rotation of the earth, providing we don't install them all the same direction. If you were concerned about that, you could build them in pairs, one running the opposite way with a reversing gear connecting them to the generator.

THX, Fletcher gives the translation above. You can buy JC's Machine Tractate for the translation of MT1 to MT55. It is a great read.

[Tarsier79]

ADD: Fletcher, perhaps both pivots and the long arm are not weights, but only the "iron rods" are considered the weights.

[preoccupied]

I think the best way to optimize my wheel is to get the springs first. It's hard to control how strong a spring is. Install the springs first and then keep adding weight until you add just enough weight to pull the spring down. The weights need to be heavy enough to hold onto the spring all of the way up the right side. When the spring releases force to slam the weight down on the left side the string on the pulley will come loose and just hang there. There is no mechanical complication with the design. It works perfectly. It's so simple. Bessler did say springs were employed but not as detractors suggest. This is a non self starting wheel. It needs to be put into motion to work because the wheel needs to be turning fast enough for the weight to slam on the left side and it starts its pursuit of that on the top a little to the right. Does anybody think that my design would work? Is there anything that I'm not describing well?

[Fletcher]

What I see Kaine (looking at 12 to 1.30 o'cl sector of MT24) and looking CW from 12 o'cl is ..

1. sector physical boundary on the radial starting at 12 o'cl
2. circumference fixed pivot position
3. iron rod attached to previous fixed pivot
4. hinge (dual pivot) attached to both iron rods
5. cross-tensioner cord thru axle to opposing sector etc from hinge
6. iron rod dual pivoted to hinge AND Weight/Mass
7. Weight with pivot to which is attached the previous iron rod
8. Lever attached via pivot to the Weight, and pivot to the inner axle hub
9. sector physical boundary ending at 1.30 o'cl

So I see it the same way - one driver Weight on a pivoted lever (mass of lever inconsequential). However, the iron rods and hinge will have some mass of significance which will effect inertia and accelerations applied to them as opposed to near massless appendages of say bamboo and straps. Perhaps the iron rods was to limit flexing because the lever-weight falling initially causes the hinge to slowly accelerate then near full open throat (see MT25) the acceleration is heading North towards infinity. Plot the velocity and acceleration of the hinge in wm2d.

FWIW - I have built many sims of these to study what might be unique. One variation I built was a vertical catapult (a type of trebuchet). Similar setup to what is shown. Q. how high could it launch a ballistic mass ?

The acceleration curves were very interesting - ultimately, and as we would expect, the Load (missile) was flung up high (vertically). Energized by the lever-weight falling/arcing down.

BUT .. the missile never had KE (wrt velocity) greater than the GPE lost by the driver. AND the driver always arrived at the stop with some velocity and KE.

So IIRC I built a Storksbill type trebuchet, so that the "Effort" mass came to an almost complete stop whilst the "Load" was at top speed. Almost perfect conditions. The KE gained was never in excess of the GPE lost - as we know all to well.

ATEOTD this is just a Galileo Simple Machine, imo !

Sorry to bang on !

[Fletcher]

Went looking for it Tarsier and no success.

So whipped up another for you to play with and add things to as required.

Pics are Catapult/Trebuchet at Start, and again at end of mass vertical throw.

> mgh = m 1/2 v^2

This is what I found in my models of MT24 and 25.

Load KE Gained never exceeded Effort GPE Lost.

[preoccupied]

When the weight impacts on the left side the spring coils to its smallest shape and forcefully pulls the connection to the center in some to increase the impact on the wheel. The sweet spot is when the impact reaches 90 degrees.

MTHard024with the sweet spot.gif (7.91 KiB) Viewed 940 times

[johannesbender]

My main thing for mt24 is, i get the idea of the inner weights shifting in and out lateral ,the outer weights though is just a problem , if the outer weights were removed and replaced by a non weight driven force instead, it might have been something notable.

[Tarsier79]

i get the idea of the inner weights shifting in and out lateral ,the outer weights though is just a problem...

What if you are thinking backwards? Shifting weights around the circumference can create an imbalance. It just doesn't fit neatly into OBs basic premise. Nearly all weight driven MT's will "run" just as well CW as CCW.

[johannesbender]

True , weights on the circumference can create imbalance , what shifts them though ?

To me it comes down to the same thing though , the force that shifts the weights in to unbalance, imo should not be a weight force .

While the force received from the weight responsible for shifting other weight in to OB is good as a force , the weight is a problem , if they had the force of x but the weight of x/10 it might have been probable (the old bessler quote about light weight lifting heavy weight much farther comes to mind).