MT 24 Magic Pulsation

[Tarsier79]

You are absolutely corrrect. It should be something other than a weight controlling another weight/gravity shift IMO.

[thx4]

Bessler's problem to solve is not one of weight...
It's a weight and timing problem.
The red weight doesn't fall faster it falls sooner... It brings with it the rest.
A++

[johannesbender]

You are absolutely corrrect. It should be something other than a weight controlling another weight/gravity shift IMO.

Yeah F = ma , good for 180 degrees down, bad past 180 upwards , the relationship of the force to mass cannot be broken for a mass , its always bound to the mass .
Other mechanical solutions can shift the relationship away from mass , for instance elastic potential energy does not directly bond the force to a mass relationship ,however different sources poses different problems though...

Bessler's problem to solve is not one of weight...
It's a weight and timing problem.
The red weight doesn't fall faster it falls sooner... It brings with it the rest.
A++

Mind expanding thx?

[preoccupied]

My friend asked me to write him a 5000 word document about my wheel and then he said he would print my wheel if he starts his company.

At what angle do you think the levers rest at when the levers are fully open? The spring is a helical coil spring. So if the spring can hold 5 newtons then about 5 newtons would be pulling on the connection to the center when the levers are closing. So it would be 5 sin angle for the force right? Plus the force the weights are putting into the impact. The weights would be about 5 newtons too so they would be 5 sin angle it's falling on angle sin angle it's pulling on and the other weight is just falling so just 5 sin angle for that. I don't know.

[preoccupied]

I forgot to draw one of the bars that hold the weight in place. It looks like the springs are going to be tangled together drawn like that. I think the wheel could be a drum cylinder. But I don't think it has to be too thick. I think that two separate chambers could be used to store the strings pulleys and springs. And they could alternate. I wish that First to Invent copyright law were back. I hate first to file.

[Fletcher]

P .. there are a few people here who might be able to help you analyze your wheel.

But if they are like me I am scratching my head looking at your drawing. What on earth is going on, or is supposed to go on ???

I suggest you make up at least 2 drawings. One with whether it turns CW or CCW for starters - use different colours for different mechanical aspects - mark in pivots - label parts etc etc. Next drawing show the springs added and explain how and when you expect them to act.

Lastly a drawing of just one set of opposing mechs - one side when just opening and the other it is connected to.

Unless we can understand it then there is not much hope anyone can contribute anything positive.

[preoccupied]

I made modified my previous drawing and made another drawing. I want to emphasize the helical coil spring and when its stretched or not.

In my modified drawing I drew the levers how they would actually be if the wheel were turning. The wheel is moving fast so that the impact can close the levers 90 degrees from the axle. It starts closing at the top. When the levers are closed in side by side spots, the spring between them is not stretched anymore. I labelled two spots where the levers are closed A and B. This is the closest the connection to the center is to the center. I drew an example up close of the springs. The wheel is rotating CCW and a levers is pulled on stretching the spring by its neighbor CW to it.

I think that the connection to the center can be a loose string because its main task is to operate the pulley to stretch the spring. The spring is fully stretched when two neighboring levers are fully open they are the furthest from the center.

I'll work on more drawings another day.

[johannesbender]

preoccupied , i think i understand how you say you connect neighboring pairs with a spring somewhere in between,then guided over pulleys/grooves , but how are you connecting the rest of them shown in your image , would the rest of your connections not lock up movement.

Edit :obviously your rope lengths would not be as drawn here , they would be the same lengths with stretching/ compressing spring lengths and possibly slacked/tensioned ropes.

[Robinhood46]

I've always thought MT24 rotates CW. The idea that it may rotate anti clockwise is interesting.
The modifications made by the person who copied the original, to give us a clearer representation, doesn't show the discrepancies in Bessler's.
If we study the modified, it appears clear that the rotation is CW, whereas the original can "maybe" give us a doubt.
If we take the weighted arm at 3, we can see that it's weight is further from the rim than the one at 9. This doesn't "make sense" in the original, and was "corrected" in the modified drawing. Both arms are horizontal, the swivel points are not the same distance from the vertical centre line, and the weights, the other end of the rods/arms, are exaggerated in their difference and the wrong way round. 3 "should" be nearer to the rim, not 9, (as shown in the modification).
I recently had a discussion with THX4, and we both thought we were talking about the same image, MT24. He had on his screen the modified and i had on mine the original. We had a bit of difficulty,(lol) because we weren't seeing the same thing, yet we were both looking at MT24. He thought i was equally as stupid as i thought he was. It was only when i saw the the modified version that we could understand why we weren't making sense.
In my opinion, any speculation regarding MT24 must me made on the original version and not the modified. The modified version is a representation of the original, with the artists speculation as to it's meaning as an added "bonus". Bessler's words have little meaning, if they aren't applied to Bessler's drawing.
That being said, i still can't imagine a way of getting it to rotate CCW.
Preoccupied, i don't think it's worth me trying to simulate your idea, but i would be more than happy to make a video answering any specific questions you, or anybody else has, regarding Algodoo, so you can simulate it yourself.

[Tarsier79]

RH. In real life it neither rotates CW or CCW. It will rotate one way slightly easier than the other. At 11:00 the weight pulls in at the top, it pushes the outer weight left, creating CCW torque.

To create an Ideal CCW torque, you would want the mechanism closed in the top half of the wheel and open in the bottom.

[johannesbender]

I've always thought MT24 rotates CW. The idea that it may rotate anti clockwise is interesting.
The modifications made by the person who copied the original, to give us a clearer representation, doesn't show the discrepancies in Bessler's.
If we study the modified, it appears clear that the rotation is CW, whereas the original can "maybe" give us a doubt.
If we take the weighted arm at 3, we can see that it's weight is further from the rim than the one at 9. This doesn't "make sense" in the original, and was "corrected" in the modified drawing. Both arms are horizontal, the swivel points are not the same distance from the vertical centre line, and the weights, the other end of the rods/arms, are exaggerated in their difference and the wrong way round. 3 "should" be nearer to the rim, not 9, (as shown in the modification).
I recently had a discussion with THX4, and we both thought we were talking about the same image, MT24. He had on his screen the modified and i had on mine the original. We had a bit of difficulty,(lol) because we weren't seeing the same thing, yet we were both looking at MT24. He thought i was equally as stupid as i thought he was. It was only when i saw the the modified version that we could understand why we weren't making sense.
In my opinion, any speculation regarding MT24 must me made on the original version and not the modified. The modified version is a representation of the original, with the artists speculation as to it's meaning as an added "bonus". Bessler's words have little meaning, if they aren't applied to Bessler's drawing.
That being said, i still can't imagine a way of getting it to rotate CCW.
Preoccupied, i don't think it's worth me trying to simulate your idea, but i would be more than happy to make a video answering any specific questions you, or anybody else has, regarding Algodoo, so you can simulate it yourself.

yes , true , as in this cad example ,depending on the radius of the hub and how far the connecting holes/pivots connect in to that hub , arc paths traced as shown for distance measure , will have different lengths on the left and right , when they are limited horizontally.

Untitled.jpg

[Robinhood46]

RH. In real life it neither rotates CW or CCW.

Lol.
None of the MTs work.

[Robinhood46]

yes , true , as in this cad example ,depending on the radius of the hub and how far the connecting holes/pivots connect in to that hub , arc paths traced as shown for distance measure , will have different lengths on the left and right , when they are limited horizontally.

I find curious that Bessler would sketch the weights (if they are weights) with a distinct tendency to be incorrectly positioned.
If they aren't weights, just pivots, then your image showing the two separate hubs could explain the shifting of the pivot points over to one side of the wheel.

[preoccupied]

Everything should move just like a normal MT24 would except that the connection to the center is a string that wraps around a pulley/groove and stretches a spring.

I drew two chambers that the strings could alternate being in to reduce tangling. Each string could have its own chamber. I don't know. My design might not be perfect right now. There would be a small hole for the connection to the center to go through as drawn. The simulations you guys are doing look 2D. You need to be able to draw in 3D to make it so that the chambers a created to reduce tangling of the strings.

[preoccupied]

I drew the strings and springs all with their own path to move so that they don't get tangled.