MT 24 Magic Pulsation

[Fletcher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzZQicVFmsA

[Robinhood46]

That is an excellent simulation Fletcher, those hands look so real.

[Fletcher]

Yes, the secret of a good simulation is in the blue box supporting the wheel. Also the CGI is awesome in this program, hence the hands look so real.

Note the realistic lag effect - the up-going lever-weight doesn't shift downwards until it is horizontal - the down-going lever doesn't begin to move until it is at 45 degs from tdc (1 + 1/2 o'cl). I wonder where the System CoM is located ?

I would say that in veproject1's build of MT25 the lever-weights and rods and hinges are actually moving of their own accord solely under gravity. And that the wheel structure is what the motor drives.

[Robinhood46]

The swinging of the arms definitely appears to be the natural movement due to gravity.
At the 9 o'clock region, when the weighted arm swings back, you can see that the inner weight isn't really lifted. Everything stays as was on the descending side, right up until the inner weight's arm is practically vertical. The arm falling back does little more than push it over horizontally.
It definitely needs an interconnection between the different weights, so as to be using a different arm to do the lifting at a more appropriate place. Maybe allowing the arm to gain a bit of momentum, before it tries lifting the weight?

[Fletcher]

"The swinging of the arms definitely appears to be the natural movement due to gravity." Yes ! However Centrifugal forces (Cf's) from forced rotation of the background wheel at a constant rpm hold them a little longer than if stationary in the "just about to fall" position. If the rpm was faster the lag would be greater on both the descending and ascending sides.

"At the 9 o'clock region, when the weighted arm swings back, you can see that the inner weight isn't really lifted." FWIW movement can only occur when potential can be changed into kinetic i.e. the inner hinge-weight and rods combined CoM does lift a tad (you can see that with the weight-hinge lifting slightly without looking at the rods). IOW's, when the driver lever-weight has potential to lose more GPE than the hinge-weight and rods attached to it combined CoM can be raised.

If GPE lost is greater than GPE gained, movement under gravity force can proceed. If GPE lost is less than GPE to be gained, movement can not proceed.

This is always the case with mechanical devices of any type influenced only by gravity. Often in sims I create an Output of GPE lost and gained and Net them out, then watch for the cross over into movement.

"Everything stays as was on the descending side, right up until the inner weight's arm is practically vertical. The arm falling back does little more than push it over horizontally." Yes, same reason as above. After the driver moves it accelerates substantially because it is losing GPE rapidly. This translates to velocity and KE gain.

"It definitely needs an interconnection between the different weights, so as to be using a different arm to do the lifting at a more appropriate place. Maybe allowing the arm to gain a bit of momentum, before it tries lifting the weight?" If there is a cross-tensioner rope etc then imo it would make no difference at all. Atm both move at about the same time when the sub-system COM can lose GPE as discussed above.

Try simming it statically RH with interconnections and see if you can get it to move and pull etc earlier - I'd be interested in what you find.

[preoccupied]

preoccupied , i think i understand how you say you connect neighboring pairs with a spring somewhere in between,then guided over pulleys/grooves , but how are you connecting the rest of them shown in your image , would the rest of your connections not lock up movement.

Edit :obviously your rope lengths would not be as drawn here , they would be the same lengths with stretching/ compressing spring lengths and possibly slacked/tensioned ropes.

I like how your picture turned out. The levers fold completely. In my sim in algodoo the levers don't fold completely. But I've simplified how the pulleys and springs are attached. How do you get yours to fold completely?

The spring is completely tight when two neighboring levers are completely closed. So there is no tension on the spring when two neighboring scissors are closed. Or there could be constant tension on the spring. It could fit real tight but it's not necessary.

[Robinhood46]

I would very much like to make a sim like that Fletcher, but my pc will not allow me to use pulleys and ropes. Ropes are made up of many short lengths of rope, with axles connecting them together, a reasonable length of rope has more parts than a whole wheel. Too many parts and the sim will not run. The weights/arms go through the stops.
This try a while back had an interconnectivity between the arms which i liked. It isn't a version of MT24, but i don't see too much of a problem turning into MT24. You can see the apologia wheel in this, and i don't see why the apologia wheel can't be applied to MT24, other than not being able to get ropes and pulleys to function in the sim world. I would like to get the arms interconnected so as to only have movement in the white regions of AP (in space, not the wheel). I've tried it with sliding rods, with no joy. I can picture the interconnections with ropes and pulleys, but i can't realise a sim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEGFVttHIQ
This is a version of MT24, although my choice of colours doesn't allow us to see very well the folding smaller arms, in the recorded video. Once again rods are used, not ropes, and there is no sign of apologia in this version, which would be possible with ropes and pulleys. What I'm not too keen on in this one, is the folding arms, folding and then unfolding immediately after, at pretty much the exact same place in space (bottom left quadrant). But as long as the opposing heavy weight, which is moved by the folding, doesn't move back with the unfolding, i don't think it will me too much of a hindrance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv7anaz2ZJU

Preoccupied appears to be having more success with ropes and pulleys, so hopefully he will be able to show us some videos with the different ways of interconnecting between the arms.
CF is having an influence on the position of the swinging, that's for sure. CF, in my opinion, is what regulates the speed of rotation. When the speed is raised, to a certain point, the delayed movement of the swinging, no longer causes an imbalance. As if CF is holding everything perfectly balanced, at a given speed. There is no reason whatsoever for it to gain speed, but as soon as there is a reduction in CF the weights move early enough to cause an imbalance.

[preoccupied]

Actually I am having difficulty with the strings and pulley in Aldodoo. If I fix something something else goes wrong. I don't think that the program can do the simulation.

My design works and it is probably Bessler's wheel because it was put together so easily based on one of his drawings MT24. Storing energy in a spring and releasing it to impact the wheel on one side is probably the only way to make a gravity perpetual motion machine. It's a very broad idea. There could probably be a variety of perpetual motion machines like it but MT24 is a pretty straight forward way to do it. It's like subtracting on one side of the equal sign and adding to the other instead of adding and subtracting the same amount from both sides of the equal sign in algebra. That's what it is doing with gravity's forces applied to the springs. I want to patent this. I don't want to charge much for building the device but I want to ask Congress and the world governments to honor me as the inventor by giving me a tax on electricity produced and sold so that the price of electricity doesn't change much and pays me the saved fuel costs. I also want carbon credits on all of my devices used as if they saved carbon from being used by coal electricity. I don't know if carbon neutral energy like solar and wind produce carbon credits, but I want carbon credits to sell to companies from my devices. You know instead of the electrical companies getting the carbon credits if they would but instead I get it as the inventor. I think inventing perpetual motion machine is pretty special thing to do and that I deserve to be rewarded in the way that I ask for. It should be very popular because global warming is such a big deal. I'm not very popular on Bessler Wheel. I don't know how much credit the website or the enthusiasts deserve for me finding Bessler's wheel. Right now I am literally sharing the working design with no one seeing its true potential. It's the only way to make a gravity wheel. I'm a former time traveler, I time traveled as a teenager. I have a knack for these kinds of things. I used to be much more visibly smart before I was assaulted many times and had concussions.

[preoccupied]

Right now in Algodoo I'm trying to set up chain and spring but every time the pulley/hinge doesn't work. It just passes right through it.

[Robinhood46]

I don't have a great deal of experience with chains and ropes, because of my computer not coping with the quantity of information that they create.
Without a video, or a few screen shots, showing exactly what the problem is, all i can suggest is watching a few videos specific to chains ropes and pulleys. Check "collision layers" and be sure to have validated "do not collide with itself" when needed, play around with different densities of the materials and spring tensions.
Another thing you could try, is running the simulation with the speed reduced the maximum. If this does fix the problem, to a certain degree, then your problem is probably more related to your computer than the programme itself. If this is the case then generally 1 spring, 1 rope and 1 pulley will work just fine at a reduced speed, and problems only occur when you start duplicating everything, or increasing the run speed.

[preoccupied]

Can you explain why my model keeps exploding in Algodoo?

[Robinhood46]

Does it run for a bit, then explode, or is it immediately when you hit play?

[Fletcher]

I don't use or know Algodoo, but the principles will be similar in how you approach complexity and dealing with it.

I suggest after watching the vids and tutorials you start with a very simple rope, chain, pulley construction. Not even related to your current sim build. Do they work as you intended ? Once you get it working properly then build up the complexity by layers i.e. add another mech or two.

Small steps until you notice when it fails (explodes etc). Then back it off a mech or two and try and deduce what is causing the problems. Is is too complex for your computer to do the calculations, are you overlapping objects beyond tolerances, change accuracy to higher, etc etc.

I know in my program I have to approach it in this way. My laptop is not fast or powerful. What it has taught me is to simplify everything to least moving parts (redesign where possible), and up the accuracy, and know the common 'bugs' that are usually finger/user trouble.

Usually the problems are common to other users at some time or other, and they have found a way to solve them (like RH46) - experience comes with practice and there is no substitute for practice and patience, until you instinctively know how to avoid most so called 'bugs'.

[preoccupied]

It explodes immediately when I set it up correctly and the pulley/hinge is working. It twitches and explodes eventually if the pulley isn't working. I think it's the software and not my computer. I have a souped up CYBERPOWERPC. I don't think that the software can manage to connect an axle to a pulley by a spring and string. Seems like pretty gimmicky software anyways. What might be more helpful to my wheel design is figuring out the correct dimensions for MT24. I didn't do any measurements for my Algodoo drawing and the levers don't fold all of the way in all of the way on the left side. How long are the levers supposed to be? In johannesbender's drawing his levers fold all of the way in. Johannesbender could you help me with this? Are you able to make a simulation with your program with the pulleys placed near the levers like my more recent drawing? I want the levers to fold all of the way in like the MT24 drawing from orffyre.com

MTHard024.gif (7.02 KiB) Viewed 1090 times

[preoccupied]

I think that I was over thinking my design. I've changed it so that a single spring is connected to the levers and not a pulley. Turns out the pulley was never necessary it was just how I was visualizing it unnecessarily. It reminds me of how after I slip and fell year 2001 I had difficulty reading simple words but the bigger more complicated words I read fine. How do you make weights in Algodoo? Now I need to place weights in the correct spots.