Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Sam,
Si vous pouvez prouver qu'une roue peut être automotrice un grand pas aura été franchi!
Bonne chance.
J.B

Hi Sam,
If you can prove that a wheel can be self-propelled, a big step has been taken!
Good luck.
J.B

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi SHADOW!!
Thanks so much for your encouragement! Still not running but, maybe I'm finally going in the RIGHT direction, for a lot of reasons. I worked with pendulums before, for over three years but, could never find any way, to reset the dam things.

I really liked your wooden model of the old time wind mills. I got to visit the Great Beacham Wind Mill in England. If you like machinery, it has every thing. I think it had a fly ball governor on the grinding wheel, long before the steam engine. The fan wheel could rotate the cap left or right depending on the direction of the wind. It was amazing--------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

New info.,
I'm surprised I can keep making the lifting lever longer and have the pendulum moving the same distance. It's like a third class lever with a double fulcrum. It kind of rotates around it's self. A third class lever is like sweeping with a broom. Normally the top end, of the broom, is the fulcrum and is more or less stationary. It's like both hands are rotating the lever, or a double fulcrum if you will. Not a new lever but, maybe a new sub class of one.

Sorry for all the physics BS-------------Sam

ETA Maybe that's what the great craftsman rule was all about.

[Gegyx]

Bonjour
Donc il y aurait un axe de rotation fictif plus près de la masse ?
Pendule raccourci et la fréquence est plus élevée…
**
Good morning
So there would be a fictitious axis of rotation closer to mass?
Pendulum shortened and the frequency is higher.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Gegyx,
Yes, a fictitious rotation point of the lever,(end to end), but, no effect on mass or frequency. The point I was trying to make is; a 7 inch lever, connected to a gear, will rotate the pendulum,(150 degrees), the same amount; as a lever twice as long, or 14 inches. Which is really great because it reduces the lifting force by half at no sacrifice, in how far the pendulum rotates-------------Sam

ETA The pendulum stays the same length, 8 inches.

[johannesbender]

Gegyx,
Yes, a fictitious rotation point of the lever,(end to end), but, no effect on mass or frequency. The point I was trying to make is; a 7 inch lever, connected to a gear, will rotate the pendulum,(150 degrees), the same amount; as a lever twice as long, or 14 inches. Which is really great because it reduces the lifting force by half at no sacrifice, in how far the pendulum rotates-------------Sam

ETA The pendulum stays the same length, 8 inches.

Is there a gear ratio involved other than 1:1 ?

[Sam Peppiatt]

Yes,
There is a 2 to one up ratio. The gear on the pendulum is two inches in diameter. The gear on the lever is four inches in diameter. The reason for it, is to speed up the resetting of the pend. so that it will occur in about 60 degrees of rotation of the wheel and at the up side of it. It has to reset faster than what the wheel is turning.

The pendulum has to rotate about 150 degrees which is quite a bit, from about straight down at 6:00 to almost straight up at 11:00, (for CCW rotation of the wheel). If that answers your question-------------Sam

Also, this is the reason for using gears, it's beyond the range of a simple lever. Reff. MT-123.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Update,
Not exactly a dead duck but, not really working either. Need another big break through---------Sam

Maybe; I've found a way to circumvent the Robel balance effect, to give continuous torque to the wheel. I ordered some new gears to try it out with.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Resetting'
Forget resetting; is has to be continuous non stop torque for this wheel to ever work. The green rod, (Reff. image p.115), or weighted lever, (borrowing from John Collins terminology), has to be isolated from the sprocket, with a pendulum to hold it horizontal with gears, connecting the two together.

This should provide continuous / constant torque to the wheel------------Sam

[Fletcher]

I agree Sam that a runner has to have continuous (or near continuous - i.e asymmetric/positive bias) torque - then it will reset itself and restore GPE as a matter of course - it can't but do otherwise .. and B. says so in unequivocal terms when he says paraphrased ' as long as it stays out of the center of gravity' - that is the crux of it in a nut shell ..

Keep doing the good science ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher,
If it is resetting it would or must be, a continuous prosses. Also, if the green rod / lever extended each way from it's pivot point and, if it had a sliding weight, it would be easily reversible,(as Bessler's wheels were apparently). For instance; if the weight slid to the left the wheel would turn CCW. If it were to slide to the right, it would turn CW.

I feel like I'm hitting all around it; and, maybe closing in on it------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

I think it is the 'deferential',(if that's the right word to use), between the forced translating motion of the weighted lever and, the rotary motion of the wheel, that causes the OOB to be continuous.
If I'm right that is------------------Sam

[johannesbender]

Yes,
There is a 2 to one up ratio. The gear on the pendulum is two inches in diameter. The gear on the lever is four inches in diameter. The reason for it, is to speed up the resetting of the pend. so that it will occur in about 60 degrees of rotation of the wheel and at the up side of it. It has to reset faster than what the wheel is turning.

The pendulum has to rotate about 150 degrees which is quite a bit, from about straight down at 6:00 to almost straight up at 11:00, (for CCW rotation of the wheel). If that answers your question-------------Sam

Also, this is the reason for using gears, it's beyond the range of a simple lever. Reff. MT-123.

Okay i imagine you have a disc(wheel) with a stationary central sprocket around the axle , then the pendulums (two weighted levers) still in the same place as the last image , the pendulums (weighted levers) has sprockets 1:1 chained with the central sprocket , then there is a lever and a gear that connects somehow and interacts with the pendulums(weighted levers) and these levers with gears attached to them have a ratio of 2:1 with the sprockets of the pendulums(weighted levers) with gears attached to them or such ?

[Sam Peppiatt]

johannesbender,
That's more or les the way it was. However, no matter what I tried, I couldn't get the pendulums to completely reset. They would lack about 10 degrees of rotation of the wheel from doing so. In other words the lifting force was always more than the force gained from them rotating downward. Best I can tell, resetting weights will never work. So, I say forget trying to do that! I'm convinced that it has to be a continuous torque, or mode of operation of some kind, to ever be success full, no resetting.

It occurred to me that the green rod,(weighted lever), in the image that you did, would work if it was free of the sprocket and held or kept horizontal by a pendulum. If it is fixed to the sprocket it won't work, the Roberval curse. I'll use MT-143 to help describe it. Check the vertical part at the very top of it. This becomes a short length of strap iron fastened to the sprocket and hangs straight down vertically. Now, the green rod, with a gear, pivots on the axel of the sprocket, same as the top lever of MT-143. The lower arm goes away to be replaced by a pendulum, (pivoting and connected to the strap iron), with a gear, to hold the upper weighted lever horizontal. I hope this helps-----------------Sam

[johannesbender]

I dont know if i got this right , you would have to clear up if something is not clear on the image , i think i got the ratio for the gears the right way around i am not sure , perhaps the "metal strap" should be behind ?.