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[Art]

It also helps us understand that when we have an amazingly brilliant idea that nobody has ever thought of, we're probably talking bollocks.
Loads of people have had exactly the same thought, when they thought of the idea for the first time, and loads of people have realised the thought wasn't as amazingly brilliant, or original, as they thought.

But since the Universe is infinite in every direction , there are no shortages of additional original subthoughts generated by the infinite number of subproblems encountered in the "realisation" of ideas .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElsDYKTntU8
Brilliant Engineering behind Pantographs 10 Mins

I'm sure a modern day Karl would describe the concept of an electric train drawing power from an overhead line as being a simple application of electricity (as I did before I watched this video : ) ) . But in reality there's nothing simple about the Universe if you want to truely understand it IMO.

What Karl should have said was " A Brilliantly simple idea " that even a carpenter's boy could build . Then I would be more sure that he understood what he saw ! : )

[Robinhood46]

It also helps us understand that when we have an amazingly brilliant idea that nobody has ever thought of, we're probably talking bollocks.
Loads of people have had exactly the same thought, when they thought of the idea for the first time, and loads of people have realised the thought wasn't as amazingly brilliant, or original, as they thought.

But since the Universe is infinite in every direction , there are no shortages of additional original subthoughts generated by the infinite number of subproblems encountered in the "realisation" of ideas .

Absolutely, subthoughts and subproblems, are infinite.
I prefer to use "detail".
I think the number of possibilities of weights going around in circles is finite, even if the number is a hell of a lot. This is why i think in all probability when we have a new idea, someone will have already thought of it, or of a very similar variation of it.
This doesn't mean that the answer definitely cannot be found, because someone else has already thought of it. It means if the answer can be found, it will be because of a detail that hasn't yet been tried, or a previously thought detail that wasn't correctly applied.
We must keep trying where others have already tried, even where we ourselves have already tried, with a new detail to add to the mix.

I think it is unfortunate that the search tool of this site, isn't too good at helping us find other members previous attempts, at our new amazingly brilliant, original thoughts.

[agor95]

...
This doesn't mean that the answer definitely cannot be found, because someone else has already thought of it. It means if the answer can be found, it will be because of a detail that hasn't yet been tried, or a previously thought detail that wasn't correctly applied.
We must keep trying where others have already tried, even where we ourselves have already tried, with a new detail to add to the mix.
...

Your logic with finding a solution to 'The Quest' has been echoed over the years. You did cause me to ask ChatGPT on this question.
However BesslerWheel Forum has not been read by the neural network!

The solution may have been found multiple times over the last 300 plus years.
I think the missing element is found and that knowledge has been passed on so it has become common knowledge.

This is only possible when a person is motivated to pass on the knowledge and there are people motivated to perceive that knowledge.

With the part of the solution being elusive and you have to get it just right to find the answer.

I am looking at it as not as elusive as people think.

Saying that I have had my mind bent looking at the maths for R3,0,1 that's a 4 dimensional description of kinetic & dynamic solid bodies in Geometric Algebra!

Understanding that is elusive.

[Fletcher]

It also helps us understand that when we have an amazingly brilliant idea that nobody has ever thought of, we're probably talking bollocks.

Loads of people have had exactly the same thought, when they thought of the idea for the first time, and loads of people have realised the thought wasn't as amazingly brilliant, or original, as they thought.

What Karl should have said was " A Brilliantly simple idea " that even a carpenter's boy could build . Then I would be more sure that he understood what he saw ! : )

Hi Art .. it's always bothered me why Karl wasn't more effusive about how B's. wheels worked - he had paid $4,000 for the privilege, and given the guy a job .. the only thing I've read about it is Frank Edwards saying Karl rushed back to his rooms to write an account of it, which hasn't been sourced or collaborated that this happened .. anyhoo - to me he had a lack of emotion/enthusiasm i.e. he didn't say it was " a brilliantly simple idea ", when we feel it must be ..

To me he was quite deadpan and just said it was easy to understand and simple to build ( paraphrased ) ..

I reconcile it this way - once he had seen the workings of the Merseburg runner he was underwhelmed, passe, not hugely impressed by the engineering components and complexity - iow's it failed to fire him up, not enough to heap platitudes on it and gush about the engineering principles employed ( unspectacular ) - perhaps they really were ho-hum ordinary, very simple indeed, just as he and B. said they were i.e. nothing to write home about in the least ..

But how they were arranged into a runner was what was special - and that was brilliantly simple because we haven't been able to fathom that arrangement as yet, but Karl doesn't even go that far - go figure ..

JMO's ..

[Trev]

"And in truth it now seems to me that the time is long overdue, now that I have achieved my goal, once known only to God, that I and the world should see this principle, in itself so simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden, of everlasting motion, described in total detail and in mathematical simplicity, in praise of God's boundless wisdom, and for the benefit of the entire world." DT 209

[Fletcher]

Yes Trev .. thanks for that ..

" that I and the world should see this principle, in itself so simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden, of everlasting motion "

.. the principle of everlasting motion, which is so utterly simple, but also deeply hidden from mankind for so long ..

.. the parts were simple; the individual actions were simple; and when brought together produced an always OOB wheel i.e. everlasting motion once initiated - no one else had thought to combine their individual actions ( altho well known ) in this unique way, imo !


An analogy for me might be the buzz-saw wheel - I studied the parts and the story closely in the early days but was not fully convinced that it was a runner from the backstories - because after studying the parts it was reasonably obvious how it was supposed to fit together and the theory to how it might work - the available actions were limited, and well known - I could not see any potential to upset or find a workaround to the Laws of Mechanics, or Physics .. eventually I moved on, and let others try to make sense of it ..

I am convinced that B's. wheel parts are also commonplace - but how they are combined to give a continuous OB output is the workaround to the Laws of Mechanics and Physics - if I saw those parts disassembled on a table top, and had enough time to study them, I would expect the penny to drop sooner rather than later, imo ..

[SHADOW]

Avancement du test excentrique:
J'ai du inverser les sens des biellettes pour des raisons de faisabilité par rapport aux matériels dont je disposais.
Il me reste les butées à mettre en place et le support d'axe de la roue à réaliser.
A suivre!!
J.B

Progress of eccentric test:
I had to reverse the direction of the rods for feasibility reasons compared to the equipment I had.
I still have the stops to put in place and the axle support of the wheel to make.
Stay tuned!!
J.B

[Sam Peppiatt]

SHADOW,
Those parts look really precision. Do you have a milling machine--------------Sam

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Sam,
Ce sont des pattes d'assemblage du commerce de bricolage que j'ai adapté.
Je n'ai pas de fraiseuse, j'ai du percer plusieurs trous et finir à la lime de sorte que l'axe glisse correctement dans le oblong.
Patience et huile de coude!!!

Hi Sam,
These are DIY shop assembly legs that I adapted.
I do not have a milling machine, I had to drill several holes and finish with the file so that the axis slides properly into the oblong.
Patience and elbow grease!!

[daxwc]

Fletcher: To me he was quite deadpan and just said it was easy to understand and simple to build ( paraphrased ) ..

I reconcile it this way - once he had seen the workings of the Merseburg runner he was underwhelmed, passe, not hugely impressed by the engineering components and complexity - iow's it failed to fire him up, not enough to heap platitudes on it and gush about the engineering principles employed ( unspectacular ) - perhaps they really were ho-hum ordinary, very simple indeed, just as he and B. said they were i.e. nothing to write home about in the least ..

Well what is a King supposed to say. I saw it and I don’t understand a damn thing about it. Kings aren’t known for their humility. A king, known for their status and authority, might feel compelled to save face by pretending to understand something even if they don't, rather than admitting ignorance and they just spent 4000 clams on nothing.

I don’t know. For me the only thing I can take away is that he didn’t notice outright fraud and had Bessler whipped.

Any opinions on why Karl refused to pay him right away? Also why Karl didn’t release another attestation?

[Sam Peppiatt]

daxwc,
100,000 oz. of silver equals $2,600,000 I admire your notion of a good deal. I know, you are suggesting that it was a piece of stuff but, maybe he just didn't want to pay that much for it--------------Sam

SHADOW, That's good work! It really is.

[daxwc]

Copilot: The Thaler was a silver coin used throughout Europe for almost four hundred years. Its size and silver content varied among different states and periods. In the 18th century, a Thaler often contained about an ounce of silver. As of 2021, an ounce of silver is worth around $25 USD.

So, if we simply consider the silver content, 4000 Thalers could be worth around $100,000 USD today.

Around there anyway is what Karl paid to look inside. He refused to pay for years the right to look inside. Not only that after seeing inside he didn't buy it; so obviously he didn't find it a earth shattering invention. I don't know what the economic state Hesse was in in 1717 other than he made money through mercenary forces.

[Sam Peppiatt]

What can I say, I don't know what the economics were either. Maybe he's thinking that in 5 to 10 years he could double his money from 100k to 200k. But, it would probably have been a big gamble.

I think that a 100,000 was about all that he was willing to pay for it. But, if you like dumping on it, go ahead--------------------Sam

[Robinhood46]

I think he may have accepted he would have had the same problem as many of us think would exit now, if someone did find the solution.
How can you make a lot of money by owning something anyone can build with four lollipop sticks, a toilet roll tube and a glue gun?

[daxwc]

I think that a 100,000 was about all that he was willing to pay for it. But, if you like dumping on it, go ahead--------------------Sam

I am not trying to dump on anything Sam. His asking price was 100,000 thalers. Karl made a deal to look inside for 4000 thalers.
JC’s books

4. The price of the machine is the same as previously: 100,000.

He agreed to finance the building of the new machine, and as a final sweetner, he agreed to pay a sum of 4000 thalers to the inventor as a fee for gaining temporary access to the machine's innermost workings. Reluctantly Orffyreus agreed.

So Karl agrees to pay 4000 thalers to see and guarantee the wheel is genuine. Then after he sees he doesn’t want to pay the 4000 nor the 100,000 to buy it, nor does he do another attestation for him. Although Karl does say there is no deception. There is something wonky going on.