Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[johannesbender]

...

[agor95]

Oddities is right. I down load it and all I get is gibberish--------------Sam

I suppose you could try changing the .txt to .doc

[Sam Peppiatt]

Thanks;
However, I have no clue how that could be done. Instead, I bought the book------Sam

[SHADOW]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.3097

https://archive.org/stream/B-001-015-43 ... 8_djvu.txt

[Sam Peppiatt]

SHADOW,
Thanks, I've always wondered how Gould felt about Bessler and his wheel. Seams like he had little regard for it---------------Sam

ETA John Collins is about the only person who ever cared for Bessler. He had the uncommon decency to speak kindly of him and, for an extended length of time, with full support of the wheel. Without insults.

Gould came up with so many derogatory words, I can't remember them all or what they mean for that matter.

[Fletcher]

Sam .. Shadow's first link above was not to Gould's " Oddities " but to A Jenkins account of the history of B's. wheels etc - he takes a prejudiced view from the get-go ..

The second one is to Gould's account " Oddities " where you look down for the section on B. and his wheels, and is much more neutrally presented and researched ..

[Roxaway59]

Thanks for posting that Fletcher I haven't seen that before.

He does make some interesting comments about the pendulums.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher I was having a go at simulating two out of phase pendulums attached to a 2m wheel.

I tried to attach them in a way that was similar to Besslers engravings but there are some things on the pictures I am not sure about.

Anyway in my attempt at recreating it I wasn't getting the impression that they were good regulators smoothing things out but more like the opposite. This could just be my clumsy attempt so far though.

I have been thinking about these pendulums over the last couple of days and I get the impression that you are thinking that the pendulums may have interacted with a mechanism on the inside of the wheel. Is that right?

One thing that came to mind is the idea of a beat frequency. The mechanical version of heterodyning.

I don't know if its a daft idea or not but maybe if the 2 pendulums were set to slightly different frequencies they could influence a pendulum inside the wheel tuned to that frequency but as to what end I don't know.

Its just a thought.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher I was having a go at simulating two out of phase pendulums attached to a 2m wheel.

I tried to attach them in a way that was similar to Besslers engravings but there are some things on the pictures I am not sure about.

Anyway in my attempt at recreating it I wasn't getting the impression that they were good regulators smoothing things out but more like the opposite. This could just be my clumsy attempt so far though.

Hi .. shortly outta time today so will make this quick as I can ..

I would still like to see your attempt at simulating them Graham - just one will do, doesn't need to be 2 etc ! I have naturally simulated them in the past and here are a few of them - please read these extracts from previous threads for discussion background in this regard ..

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 14#p206314

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 79#p206279

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 85#p206285

n.b. .. Rupert Gould was a very capable and knowledgeable horologist - he makes some astute observations about clocks and pendulums use - he was afterall commissioned to restore Harrison's pendulum clock ..

B. gives us the run-around to some degree imo .. first he says in AP that fly-wheels are not the answer but should not be sniffed at ( paraphrased ) ..

John Collins AP pg 348 .. "But, fly-wheels are not to be sniffed at! Though anyone who sets about the task of bringing a Mobile to glorious completion with such devices, is not on the right track at all."

Yet, we know that standard disk shaped fly-wheels do store and release energy and "smooth" momentum delivery ( angular velocity ) - and so do pendulums to a degree, but not in the same "smooth-running" manner as a disk with mass ..

Gould's translation from DT .. "The movement is controlled by two pendulums, as shown in the engraving at the end of this book."

JC's DT translation of same .. "can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights, as the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate."

B's. comments in the DT legends of his devices ..

8. Pendulums on each side to keep machine running true.
p. Pendulum for use when machine is to be operated slowly.

We naturally are lead to the similarity of a fly-wheel energy/momentum smoothing function to that of a pendulum function by his comments - but they are not the same at all - as can be seen the pendulums whilst providing some energy/momentum storage and delivery mode actually speed up and slow down ( pump and dump ) the wheel disk in a repeating saw-tooth or sine wave function .. see attached sim and gifs .. we assume to regulate is to "smooth-out", regulate means "control" - the pendulums were not required at low speeds such as the Kassel Wheel water screw test at 20 rpm ..

Rhetorical Q. What did B. do that required a specialist knowledge and a tremendous amount of calculation ( paraphrased ) ?

................



................

I have been thinking about these pendulums over the last couple of days and I get the impression that you are thinking that the pendulums may have interacted with a mechanism on the inside of the wheel. Is that right?

IMO an external pendulum(s) was his first iteration prime mover - first mover of the wheel .. inside the wheel was an unbalancing arrangement that was biased to keep to one side of the CoG so it had net positive gravitational torque - this was continually reset by the prime mover contribution so it could not find its PQ - in his later wheels the pendulum iteration of the prime mover was replaced by a hidden internal arrangement that operated in a similar fashion to an external pendulum - in that it periodically caused a wheel MOI change ( the "shaker" - not really discernible to the naked eye ), also pumping and dumping the wheel angular velocity ( i.e. accelerate and brake phases repeating ) - this is the "ice-skater effect" in the common vernacular .. the 2 systems worked in tandem in a reinforcement feed-back loop to accelerate the wheel up to operating rpm ..

ETA .. the pendulum arrangement was a precise bit of kit, imo - in that it was designed to "squeeze" the axle-crank thru the "gap" when the pendulum bob was near or at extremes of its swing - this action had an effect on the wheel angular velocity causing it to "hunt", somewhat like a poor-mans escapement effect, imo ..

Gotta go and crack on ..

One thing that came to mind is the idea of a beat frequency. The mechanical version of heterodyning.

I don't know if its a daft idea or not but maybe if the 2 pendulums were set to slightly different frequencies they could influence a pendulum inside the wheel tuned to that frequency but as to what end I don't know.

Its just a thought. .. Graham

................

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, this is what you asked me to do.

Graham, here is an exercise I think you should do to gather some facts together about external pendulums - it may assist your ramp entering problem for instance - sim in Algodoo a standard 2 meter diameter disk with the dual external pends attached like the engravings show via a crank to axle - motor run it up to an rpm and turn the motor off - plot the rpm of the wheel as it rotates after coasting - Q. is the rpm constant or sine wave in appearance ? - how and why do the pendulums affect this plot shape ( and rpm ) ?

I am posting my sim as you requested but I should just say that even without any graphs it has to be fairly obvious that the wheel RPM has to follow the action of the pendulums.

If the wheel is really heavy then its a bit more difficult for the pendulums to influence the wheel but there is still going to be an oscillation in the wheels RPM.

Therefore the pendulums certainly don’t smooth out the RPM its just the opposite.

It is possible however that whatever was on the inside of the wheel may have been working in conjunction with the external pendulums giving a more smooth RPM.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher, ...

... I am posting my sim as you requested but I should just say that even without any graphs it has to be fairly obvious that the wheel RPM has to follow the action of the pendulums.

If the wheel is really heavy then its a bit more difficult for the pendulums to influence the wheel but there is still going to be an oscillation in the wheels RPM.

Therefore the pendulums certainly don’t smooth out the RPM, its just the opposite.

[ It is possible however that whatever was on the inside of the wheel may have been working in conjunction with the external pendulums giving a more smooth RPM. ]

Mornin Graham ..

Thanks for your Algodoo sim and comments, appreciated - I would go as far as to say that even without sims to confirm it, and just thinking it thru as a thought experiment, it should seem fairly obvious that the wheel RPM ( angular velocity ) is constrained by the pendulum actions ( the dominant ) and forced by the crank connection to the axle to slow down and then speed up again in a repeating pattern - at the same time the mass of the wheel then acts somewhat like a fly-wheel, and allowing for the crank to "squeeze" thru at 12 o'ck and 6 o'cl without to much slowing effect in my model ( 9 and 3 o'cl in your model ) - the two systems are mechanically linked with one dominant and the other subservient and momentarily visa versa - the classical feedback loop - but we still have no unbiased imbalance factor to cause an acceleration of the wheel ..

Therefore imo there are some deductions to be made, and takeaways ..

.. 2 pendulums in opposition smooth out the pendulums combined periods and swing arcs i.e. if you look at my single pendulum sim you will see that it swings slightly further one side than the other ( this can not be avoided because of the feedback we are talking about ) - with 2 in opposition the swing-out also happens the other side at the same time, balancing/synchronizing everything - what this means is that the magnitude of the acceleration of RPM when pumping is exactly matched by the deceleration of RPM that comes after ( the dumping ) - if this "balancing of forces" was not important then 2 pendulums would not be shown in the engravings ..

[ Therefore the pendulums certainly don’t smooth out the RPM, its just the opposite ]

Clear as a bell - they do not "smooth" anything out in the least, and make it disjointed, and worse, if that was your real aim - you'd be barking up the wrong tree to have them act as a smoothing agent, but it might be a different story if attempting to have the machine "run true" - tho obviously also blatantly not required to aid running at slow RPM's ..

[ It is possible however that whatever was on the inside of the wheel may have been working in conjunction with the external pendulums giving a more smooth RPM. ]

And here is the rub to that argument .. the wheels were recorded as accelerating quickly to operating RPM in just 1 to 2 turns - this means if they had a relatively high mass ( to act more like a smoothing agent ) then that rate of acceleration to working RPM would take considerably more turns than 1 or 2, and over a much longer time period - therefore they were of relatively low mass which seems as unlikely as them being of extreme heavy mass - therefore it was the internal mechanical arrangements ( continually being reset by an agent) that caused the positive torque bias - and it was this that caused the rapid acceleration up to working RPM and maintained it while doing work ..

ETA .. reinforced by the recorded witness opinion that his Merseburg two-way wheel could only be stopped forcibly and could have lifted a man off his feet - IOW's, while a certain amount of that force required could reasonably be attributed to the momentum of the wheel itself, it seems to me the majority came from the biased imbalance factor working-on rather than wheel momentum itself - so it rapidly accelerated and then took a great deal of force to stop it, which makes both facts at odds with a pure momentum explanation ..

.......

[Fletcher]

So lets start to take a closer look into what Rupert Gould had to say about matters ..

Remembering that B's. wheels were only a section of his book ( not the whole focus ), that he was an accomplished horologist, and that he comes across to me as looking thru the lens of assuming from the outset that all B. drew in his engravings was real and true ..

>> The mantra of solving a crime ( or a mechanical mystery in this case ) ..

Means, Motive, Opportunity .. and the ABC's .. sorting of facts, circumstantial evidence, and hearsay ..

A . Assume Nothing ..
B. Believe Nothing ..
C. Check Everything ..

...........

... But the puzzle of its actual mechanism remains unsolved.

In one minor point Orffyreus certainly showed great ingenuity. That is, the arrangement of pendulums by which he controlled his machine. Incidentally, nearly all of the writers who have attempted to describe his wheel have omitted all mention of these pendulums — although the latter explain several obscure points in connection with the whole story.

Judging by the engraving in his book (Plate III) they were connected by links to two opposed cranks on the axle of the wheel, their effects being thus balanced, so that they did not, in any position, oppose the rotation of the wheel, even when it was being started from rest. They appear to have been about 11 feet long, and would therefore have had a period, if they were simple pendulums, of some 1-8 seconds, corresponding to a wheel-speed of roughly thirty-three revolutions per minute. But, as shown, they were not simple pendulums by any means, since they had three “bobs”, two being at their upper ends. In consequence, their period would have been lengthened, and might easily have coincided with a wheel-speed of twenty-six turns a minute, which was that observed by ’s Gravesande and Fischer. It would have been difficult to use an escapement to control the wheel, and these pendulums probably formed a very efficient substitute — although a fan, one thinks, would probably have been better.

It will be noticed that I am assuming that the wheel possessed inherent power of rotation sufficient to require some form of control. I regard this as strongly suggested by the evidence— although I can offer no indication of its real source.

It is certain that power cannot be generated by any form of “over-balancing wheel”. It is almost certain that it cannot be generated by any mechanical means whatsoever. I qualify this second statement, because of what was once written on the point by a man well equipped to judge.

...........

[thx4]

A pendulum will show jolts in the rotation, even if imperceptible, plus acceleration...???
There remains the possibility of a weight falling on one end of the pendulum to restart it, perhaps to be studied in detail.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Thx4,
C'est la piste à explorer!
Draisine + pendules+Jouets forgerons?

Thx4,
This is a track to explore!
Draisine + pendulums + Toy blacksmiths?

[Sam Peppiatt]

One thing is for sure; R.T. Gould is of no help to anyone----------------Sam