Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[Fletcher]

Hey Gregory .. excellent post - I will visit in the next few days - I have been a bit busy doing house repairs and making sims for Georg on his thread to give it the full thought it deserves ..

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Hey Kattla .. wm2d can sim hydrostatic forces ( pressure ) and weight simulations - if you know the formula you can simulate the forces etc ..

Many years ago I simmed various devices where the hydrostatic force increased by the linear vertical distance of the fluid as fluid pressure does ( Pascal's Theorem ) - not sure what you mean by "weight simulations" ? but I can have mass change in a sim but that is not real-world possible - if you are referring to transferring fluids around a wheel then weight is a weight force - if you know the force you can generally simulate a fluid weight change ( e.g. as beaker fills up or empty's ) , if I understand what you are asking ..

[Kattla]

Hey Kattla .. wm2d can sim hydrostatic forces ( pressure ) and weight simulations - if you know the formula you can simulate the forces etc ..

Many years ago I simmed various devices where the hydrostatic force increased by the linear vertical distance of the fluid as fluid pressure does ( Pascal's Theorem ) - not sure what you mean by "weight simulations" ? but I can have mass change in a sim but that is not real-world possible - if you are referring to transferring fluids around a wheel then weight is a weight force - if you know the force you can generally simulate a fluid weight change ( e.g. as beaker fills up or empty's ) , if I understand what you are asking ..

Thanks.
More like weight distribution , but i'll probaly figure something out in the real world. Hopefully with less splashing then last experiment. Although i guess washing the floor isn't all that bad once in a while.

[Gregory]

Hey Gregory .. excellent post - I will visit in the next few days - I have been a bit busy doing house repairs and making sims for Georg on his thread to give it the full thought it deserves ..

Hey Fletcher,

Great, take your time!

In the meantime, I played a little with the swinger cart.
I created a synthetic test of periodically collecting the GPE from the pendular weights and transferring their energy into a very heavy flywheel. Pretty much synthetic, using a bunch of formulas for locks/latches and stuff... Also the movement of the cart is initiated by synthetic forces.

But it looks interesting. I wonder that above a certain RPM, could the flywheel can pay for those forces? That's the question!
Because the forces used are constant and not so powerful, while KE in the flywheel accumulate continuously with each cycle.
Moreover, what is great that presumably the faster (with more KE) the flywheel rotates, the less and less force is needed to swing up the swinger... almost like a semi-free lift... because more momentum remains in the pendular motion... and you never stop it, just let it swing without stopping at the bottom. Also, the heavier the flywheel the more KE to be accumulated...
So, kinda unusual, I don't know...

Looks like it's just one step away for the synthetic forces to be based on flywheel RPM. The faster the less might be needed...
Also, they could be replaced by some kind of hammer or piston type mech driven by the flywheel to strike the cart periodically the right moment. Not an easy arrangement/connection though...

Have fun, you might like to analyse this...

Looks like I relapsed, but perhaps in a good way.
Yesterday night I probably solved something in my own theory/design where I was stuck for a year or so. However, a series of "nice" calculations are needed to check that for sure. Well, if that could be put to wait for more than a year, then not in a hurry.

[Fletcher]

Hey Gregory .. excellent post - I will visit in the next few days - I have been a bit busy doing house repairs and making sims for Georg on his thread to give it the full thought it deserves ..

Hey Fletcher,

Great, take your time! I will, unfortunately ..

In the meantime, I played a little with the swinger cart.

I created a synthetic test of periodically collecting the GPE from the pendular weights and transferring their energy into a very heavy flywheel. Pretty much synthetic, using a bunch of formulas for locks/latches and stuff... Also the movement of the cart is initiated by synthetic forces.

But it looks interesting.

I wonder that above a certain RPM, could the flywheel pay for those forces? That's the question! Yes, it is - see my comments below ..

Because the forces used are constant and not so powerful, while KE in the flywheel accumulate continuously with each cycle.

Moreover, what is great that presumably the faster (with more KE) the flywheel rotates, the less and less force is needed to swing up the swinger... almost like a semi-free lift... because more momentum remains in the pendular motion... and you never stop it, just let it swing without stopping at the bottom. Also, the heavier the flywheel the more KE to be accumulated...

So, kinda unusual, I don't know...

Looks like it's just one step away for the synthetic forces to be based on flywheel RPM. The faster the less might be needed...
Also, they could be replaced by some kind of hammer or piston type mech driven by the flywheel to strike the cart periodically the right moment. Not an easy arrangement/connection though...

Have fun, you might like to analyse this... mate, snowed under but I will get to it - looks interesting ..

Looks like I relapsed, but perhaps in a good way.

Yesterday night I probably solved something in my own theory/design where I was stuck for a year or so. However, a series of "nice" calculations are needed to check that for sure. Well, if that could be put to wait for more than a year, then not in a hurry.

.. " good things come to those who wait "- so why not lol - I would like to look at your calcs at a later time for sure .. and relapsing ain't so bad - keeps us ff the streets and out of bars ..

Just dashing home for some lunch and then straight back to the coal face lol .. quick thoughts ..

" I wonder that above a certain RPM, could the flywheel pay for those forces? That's the question! "

When I had this idea Greg my simple brain thought like this .. * it likes to think in simple terms which is not always easy to do * ..

We all know that a single Pendulum can be raised up and latched so it has gained GPE - we had to physically put the energy in to give it that stored GPE - once unlatched it will swing merrily away for a very long time, back and forwards, back and forwards ..

.. IF .. there were no dissipative energy losses like bearing frictions, or air frictions, heat, sound, vibrations etc it would always climb back up to the same starting height ( restore full PE ) and carry on swinging forever, in theory - but there are small dissipative energy losses ( which can be minimized ) which slowly rob it of KE and so its PE each swing must get less and less as its oscillations dampen down and eventually stop the pendulum - then we have to put energy in again and reset it for the next time we want to let it swing etc ..

And if we connect it to an ordinary unspectacular fly-wheel via a crank rod ( like B. showed in his engravings ) then the fly-wheel would do what fly-wheels do - store and release energy - and the pendulum could drive the fly-wheel and the fly-wheel drive the pendulum, forever in a world where there were no dissipative energy losses ..

But the real-world does have dissipative energy losses, tho they can be minimized so they are a relatively small energy drag/loss on the dance of the pendulum and fly-wheel ..

.. SOOOOO .. to keep the dance going all we would need to do is supply a small amount of engineered energy to exactly match the dissipative energy losses - actually not that much energy - we give it a little excitement push each time the pendulum swings our way ( by hand is really easy ) - we hardly notice the input ( just ask Milkovic and his 2SO ) - and if we want to force the pendulum to swing faster and the fly-wheel to increase rpm so that we can bleed off some of that KE to do external work all we have to do is give it a little bit more push each time - job done ! ..

.. SOOOOO .. what if we could have a bunch of one-way "swingers" on that fly-wheel - and let the natural frequency of the pendulum climbing up, quickly slowing down ( limited by the crank to the height it can swing ), stopping, reversing direction, and quickly accelerating, then those swingers could be jerked by the dance and set into an overbalance torque position to give some extra boost ( i.e. excess impetus, from excess weight ) of speed ( rpm ) in the direction the flywheel was rotating - and that speed would swing the pendulum a bit faster etc ( not higher ) ..

All that had to happen was for the swinger overbalancing factor to create enough torque and flywheel rpm ( Momentum / KE ) to, at the very least, cover the minimized dissipative energy losses of the pendulum and fly-wheel in their merry dance - and all things should continue " uninterruptus " until some parts wear out or break, in theory ..

Funny how simple my mind works sometimes .. here's just a sim animation of a dance between a pendulum and a fly-wheel, without any " swinger bling " ..

Just one big Momentum storage device, with a small amount of energy bleeding from the system over time - could be topped up by some additional momentum input me reckoned ..

* ETA .. And Momentum and Kinetic Energy are opposite sides of the same coin - now what Momentum source was the wheel bolted to again ?

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[Fletcher]

@ All .. just to be perfectly clear about my theory of a runner and free-lifting potential ..

* For the arrangement I have described above where a pendulum is connected via a crank shaft to a flywheel ( see animation last post ) *

When it is given an above threshold impetus the pendulum must swing to a prearranged set height, and no further ( unlike an ordinary pendulum ) - approaching this height it is decelerated, it stops, and it is accelerated in the opposite direction in a feedback loop with the fly-wheel - if more impetus is given to the arrangement than just to exactly meet very small system dissipative energy losses the pendulum speed ( KE ) at bottom dead center will increase ( n.b. its PE does not because it is stopped at the same swing height ) to absorb that extra impulse energy - if a larger impulse is given then the deceleration and acceleration phases of the pendulum is more pronounced ( aka violent / conspicuous ) - if one-way swingers are attached this amplifies ( amps up ) the 'jerk' response ( i.e. the pump and dump cycle ) causing the swingers to gain greater average GPE, and in turn the swingers to create greater average torque to the fly-wheel, and in turn create a greater impulse energy input back into the pendulum i.e. a positive feedback loop grows, from very small beginnings ( innate momentum gains ) ..

[thx4]

MT51 I've always liked this idea and done a lot of experimenting on the subject, and it's great to see your current work.
What I didn't do on the Mt51, I think, is that once you get to the low point, “the lens” would have to change shape to perhaps generate a little something, a bit like an old-fashioned swing. The child extends his legs to add momentum.
Personally, I've given up on the idea of a pendulum swing, too fragile to be able to lift anything... But I'm with you.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Fletcher & Thx4,
C'est une des pistes coincées au fond de mes brumes conceptuelles !!
Comme déjà exprimé je pense à la gravure ou la roue est couplée avec les pilons et les spseudos balanciers.
Les pseudos balanciers ayant pour fontion de relever les pilons.
Les pilons ayant pour fonction d'entretenir l'élant de la roue d'inertie.
Le balancier doit transmettre son energie par le biais d'un déséquilibre ponctuel de sa barre horizontale.(un débrayage ou une articulation de l'un des cotés)
Mais cela reste pour l'instant une élucubration bien coincée au fin fond des limbes !!!!
Je termine mes essais avec la roue convergeante, qui s'annonce comme un nouveau Couac!!

Hello Fletcher & Thx4,
It’s one of the tracks stuck in my conceptual mists!
As already expressed I think of the engraving or the wheel is coupled with the pilons and spseudos rockers.
The pseudo-rockers having for function to raise the drumsticks.
The pestles having the function of maintaining the impeller.
The balance must transmit its energy through a point imbalance of its horizontal bar (a decoupling or a joint on one side)
But it remains for the moment a well-stuck elucubration in the deep end of the limbo!!
I finish my tests with the converging wheel, which is announced as a new Couac!

[Georg Künstler]

A positive feed back loop must be controlled up to a specific limit.
If this limit is exceeded, the system destroys itself.
This is the area of ​​control engineering.
I have described this again and again.
This is not a Bessler problem, this is a general problem with increasing/rising amplitude.

[Fletcher]

A positive feed back loop must be controlled up to a specific limit. If this limit is exceeded, the system destroys itself.

This is the area of ​​control engineering. I have described this again and again.

This is not a Bessler problem, this is a general problem with increasing/rising amplitude.

Actually Georg I think we all know that an uncontrollable positive feedback loop would raise its energy level and eventually thrash itself to bits without some sturdy engineering and redundancies etc built in to it to dampen the oscillation and stop that happening ..

Personally I believe that an external Load ( external Work Done ) would assist that by bleeding off some of the excess energy - and in my arrangement of radial swingers to raise GPE and create torque I believe Cf's would become a larger and larger active force assisting it to not overrun and stabilize its rpm at the runners top-end rpm limit as recorded ..

[Fletcher]

MT51 I've always liked this idea and done a lot of experimenting on the subject, and it's great to see your current work. Thanks .. What I didn't do on the Mt51, I think, is that once you get to the low point, “the lens ( pendulum bob )” would have to change shape to perhaps generate a little something, a bit like an old-fashioned swing. The child extends his legs to add momentum.

Personally, I've given up on the idea of a pendulum swing, too fragile to be able to lift anything... But I'm with you. Glad to hear my ideas are understandable and have some familiarity ..

Thx4 and Shadow ..

" “the lens ( pendulum bob )” would have to change shape to perhaps generate a little something, a bit like an old-fashioned swing. The child extends his legs to add momentum."

Then ( when I get to them ) you will be interested in my multiple internally spaced MOI changing devices that also theoretically pump and dump the entire arrangement as they all rotate around together - they are an internally fitted upgrade on the external pendulum imo - stay tuned and thinking, not too far away ..

[Fletcher]

Thx4 & Shadow .. I think just about all of us realize that B's. runners were driven around by reoccurring asymmetric torque ( he tells us they are overbalanced wheels ) - and this abundance of positive torque was probably reactive and grew, such that the wheel accelerated very quickly as is recorded ..

But we have all tried ad infinitum geographically shifting weight inside a wheel which does not give any excess torque, because they can not lift the weights back up and restore GPE, with some momentum left over to rotate the wheel after PE recovery ..

For me coming up with a simple, easy to understand internal mechanics ( as said to be ) wasn't the biggest problem ( it is still big ) - it was explaining where the excess energy came from to do the external work - and so I went looking at WEEP theory to disentangle Work Done from Energy in certain mechanical relationships, to explain a surplus of available energy in Classical Physics terms - ultimately this meant a runner was scavenging momentum/KE from a source nearby and available to close-out the energy budget ..

My mech in the beginning piqued me because the pendulum could go faster and faster, assuming a positive feedback loop, but it could not gain any more GPE - what it does is transfer the unrealized GPE gain to the swingers .. but to do that it needs to be continuously heavily braked and accelerated each half cycle of pendulum swing - and this limited controlled range of action is quite counterintuitive to what we imagine normal pendulums do which can gain or lose height - but not that counterintuitive to a clock maker with pendulum movements and height controlled by escapements ..

[thx4]

the problem with pestles is that they force you to be unidirectional. I have to admit that, apart from breaking bricks, I find it hard to understand why.
In watchmaking, the end of the balance wheel is called “the lens”.
Photo attached, and therein lies the problem or solution!!!!
A thousand ideas arise at the same time about what's possible...
Maybe the pendulum takes on a weight (ball) at 4pm that it releases around 6pm.
I'm incorrigible 🙂

[SHADOW]

Thx4
Mes élucubrations concernant la partie pilonage!
Cela est plus de l'orde de l'échapement horloger, mais avec un apport moteur du à la gravité.
Couplé à une roue d'inertie et entretenu par le pseudo balancier!

Thx4
My speculations about the beating part!
This is more of the domain of watchmaking escape, but with a motor contribution from gravity.
Coupled to a flywheel and maintained by the pseudo-pendulum!

[johannesbender]

@Fletcher , typicly kinematic software simulate physics by using the formulas for motion and forces and energy etc , where bodies have physics properties like mass elasticity etc which is all variables to be plugged to the formulas (newtons laws etc) , conservation laws etc , then theres also an algorithm model used to process/calculate or approximate the differential equations of all the numerical data (iincrementally) such as the runge kutta or euler methods ( you would have to research them to have a clear and error free answer) , which after all calculations are processed the visuals on your screen is finally updated (positions etc) , ofcourse there are all other types of formulas processed like collision detection and constraints etc.

Many software use these formulas to simulate motion and physics , but not all aim to have a high level of accuracy , some software aim to have an acceptable level of speed and accuracy such as physics engines and games , wm2d and other simular software aims to have a much higher and customizable level of accuracy , but all in all they all must use the formulas we know to adhere to what we know in the real world of motion and physics .

I know this is an unstructured summation and pretty much a vain answer , but the facts are , whether one is a coder or not , in the end you cannot really fully answer these questions without inside knowledge of the code or structure of the software in question , and the reason is that coders dont have to stick to a certain particular blueprint for their software , there are different ways of getting from A to B , but in general this is more or less how its done and as much information i can conjure up without knowing whats really under the hood , the best one could do is ask the developers of a particular software for accurate information .

@Fletcher to backup what i have been saying with some data , however from a different source other than wm2d software , here is an example of how this open source physics simulation software for java is structured like the scenario i described to you :

https://www.myphysicslab.com/

How Does It Work?
Most of the simulation web pages show how the math is derived. See for example the Single Spring simulation.

A physics simulation starts with a mathematical model whose variables define the state of the system at a given time. Each variable represents the position or velocity of some part of the system.
The heart of a physics simulation is the set of differential equations that describe how the variables evolve over time. The forces and geometry determine the equations.
The next step is getting the computer to solve the equations, a process that goes by the name numerical analysis. The Runge Kutta method is a popular choice.
For simulations that involve collisions there are additional steps: we need to detect the collision and then back up in time to the moment before the collision to modify the velocities.
Finally, there are lots of programming details about how to represent objects on the computer display, how to handle user input, how to synchronize with real time, and so on.
The rigid body physics engine is the most sophisticated simulation shown here. It is capable of replicating all of the other more specialized simulations. The physics engine handles collisions and also calculates contact forces which allow objects to push against each other.

And a description fot the runge kutta used : https://www.myphysicslab.com/explain/ru ... ta-en.html

With an example of a realtime pendulum and cart simulation with the math and all the simulation goes through explained below the page : https://www.myphysicslab.com/pendulum/c ... um-en.html

And for those interested in coding with this simulation software : https://github.com/myphysicslab

Hope it helps .

[daxwc]

"For simulations that involve collisions there are additional steps: we need to detect the collision and then back up in time to the moment before the collision to modify the velocities."

Sounds like error correction to a perceived outcome to me. When two formulas don't quite match so you need a fudge number.