Gravitational shortcut

[daxwc]

JB: Countering the forces is possible but its the reset thats always the issue

True. But if it counter balances through 360 degrees then it doesn’t need a reset. It just needs a weight swap at different PE.

[johannesbender]

I get your point daxwc , look at the first couple of animations i posted they come from 360 degree capable designs , even my lever was 360 degree capable except i did not use 360 , torque is the same at the same opposed angles so 360 is not an issue .

[Zhyyra]

Thanks for sharing some of the awesome work you have done JB.

Zhy

[johannesbender]

I believe the meaning of the "Prime Mover" as Bessler may have used it could have changed or has gotten an additional interpretation over the years , i think Bessler named his whole machine the "prime mover" and not specifically a sub entity or part of that whole machine , i think it is a sub titel we have given to a sub entity or part of a whole machine due to interpretations stemming mainly from MT15 , and perhaps there are two ways of interpreting it instead of just one.

No. 15: This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends.
From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight.

However if look at AP for clarity , it would seem to me , that the "Prime Mover" as we commonly refer to around here could perhaps not be the one and same as what Bessler was refering to , Bessler can be quoted calling his wheel the Primus Mobile and the Perpetuum Mobile synonymously (depends on your interpretation too) , it is my believe due to these words of Bessler himself and the meaning of Primum Mobile as follows :

noun: primum mobile
1.the most important source of motion or action.
2.(in the medieval version of the Ptolemaic system) an outer sphere supposed to move round the earth in twenty-four hours carrying the inner spheres with it.
Origin

from medieval Latin, literally ‘first moving thing’.

I believe Bessler referred and named his device/wheel/machine the Primum Mobile because it was the "first moving thing" invented , as in the first self moving device , and he added to this name also the name of Perpetuum Mobile because not only was it the first self moving thing it also moved other things along with it too and should supposedly move itself without intervention and for as long as nothing breaks or goes wrong.

If however its interpreted as a part and not a whole , then the following quote in particular is quite odd.

Here we can find a couple of examples quoted from AP in his own words :

These dear souls struggled their whole lives long to seek their most vexingly elusive goal of persistent motion, and it became a kind of byword on land and sea to say of someone: "He's trying to discover Perpetual Motion!" But all this labour of all these gifted people was quite in vain. Until, at last, I was able to achieve the wondrous gift of God. This gift, which even now is a subject of much discourse, as has been discussed in my little book. Totally enraged, my enemies conspire together, like players trying to blow the same horn. Cloaked in lying secrecy, they work out their cunning wiles. For instance, they try to tell people that a Mobile must run slowly - it mustn't run fast, because their contraptions only run slowly. Enemy Number Two says that, since there are 3600 seconds in an hour, my machine, if it is a true Mobile, must turn round, each hour, exactly as often as that. As for Enemy Number Three, the real gist of his efforts is just to insult me and try to suppress me and my work with secret devilish malice. Bold as brass he shouts out for all the world to hear that, even if my device was as I describe, and didn't need winding, and would revolve of its own accord as long as its materials lasted, it STILL wouldn't be a true Mobile!

Do you see? These foolish ravings of my enemies will be held up to total ridicule by all intelligent people, who, with true understanding, have sought the Mobile in a place no different from that in which I eventually found it. Let the envious soul first describe to us what he thinks a true Mobile should be, what sort of device one should give that name to, and what he would be prepared to give for one - or let him actually produce one - and then we can judge the matter. In the meantime my machine will be called the PRIMUM, and it will also be called Perpetuum. The enemy in his madness can call it what he likes - my machine is the selfsame device that my enemies were unable to achieve.

Organ-craft. I praise God a thousand-fold that I do know it. All the different registers, stops, chords, and keyboards in their almost infinite subtle variety— all this, I say, prepared me for the Primum Mobile, and accompanied me on the true path towards it. God chose this noble channel to send forth my work into the vale of tears that is our world, and bring solace to those who labour. Every land shall marvel when it learns of my invention. So too shall they listen in awed silence as I relate the vain labours I was destined to complete before I perfected my machine.

Dear readers, you can discover, if you stay to take the trouble, a rich wisdom in Borlach's writings! Did you know, for example, that a mill is not a Primum Mobile? Yes, he tries to teach educated people things that children know before they go to school. What sort of brain could dream up such fanciful ideas? But the point is, my invention is not fanciful—I haven't suddenly come up with an unheard-of form of matter; rather, I have invented something new from commonplace materials.

Eventually I came to Prague, and began as early as my first night there to think of the Primum Mobile. For the vision of the roasting-spit would not leave my mind. I thought it might be possible, on mechanical principles, to devise a better machine, and shut myself up to study the matter. One day a Jesuit came to see me - perhaps the most learned priest I'd ever met - and soon we were great friends. He pondered long and deep about what I was investigating, and I reciprocated by going with him to his monastery. I said to him:-

"Sir, you are looking at a Perpetuum Mobilist!"

This is what friends normally do when addressing reach other, but Gartner wasn’t the sort to act thus. Small thanks he’ll get from me for his pains! But if he’d been reasonable, I’d have received him very well, and welcomed him into my house. We’d both have got on well and felt no rancour. Indeed, I would have led him both to my invention, as befits a man of his standing, and then, when he had inspected it, he could have made his declaration somewhat along the following lines:

“My dear Orffyreus, everywhere people are reading in their newspapers about how you have just invented a marvellous, wondrous Wheel. Well, very often huge numbers of people come along to ask questions about it; what do I think of it; have I actually inspected it, etc. Naturally I can’t give them any information before I’ve seen the thing, so I’ve taken the trouble to have a very close look at your device. Don’t take what I say amiss, for I won’t beat about the bush, and please don’t be offended, but I tell you straight, it isn’t a Primum Mobile. No matter how much effort you put into it, the trick in essence seems to me that you have a hollowed-out supporting post through which the wheel is driven. That will be the sum total of my estimation until you can prove the contrary. The truth means a great deal to me, so please demonstrate to me what I wish to know. If you can prove to me that your claim is correct, I’ll be the first to proclaim your diligence. Above all others in the land you’ll be famed and honoured, and those who at present hate you will have to leave you in peace. I myself will be pleased to stand, in word and deed, at the side of such an honourable man.”

This is what Gartner should have said had he wished to be called an honourable man. It would have been only just and fair. And I would have shown, demonstrated and granted to him more than he could have ever wished, for craftsmen are often more generous than one might think in their revelations to their fellows.

So it would appear to me that the Prime Mover or Primum Mobile could have been meant to be a name given to his wheel as a whole and which gives a different meaning to MT15 , however we have interpreted the meaning as something else in particular as a part of the machine and it could be either one or the other , and i mean no disrespect or to stir trouble because it is acceptable for people to create names and attach them to something , but i believe the original meaning could perhaps be misinterpreted and that the alternative should also be known about , and therefor this is why i posted this .

[SHADOW]

Bonjour JB,
Nous utilisons le therme de premier moteur pour fixer l'idée sur laquelle nous réfléchissons.
Il se peut qu'il y ait plusieurs moteurs de sorte qu'ils apportent cycliquement le transfert d'énergie nécessaire aux réarmements.
Il se peut que ce ne soit qu'un ensemble interconnecté.

En pièce jointe mon idée d'hélicoïde dite moi si vous y trouvez une portance négative?

Hello JB,
We use the first engine therm to fix the idea we are thinking about.
There may be several motors so that they cyclically provide the energy transfer needed for rearmament.
It may be just an interconnected set.

In attachment my idea of helical tells me if you find a negative lift?

[SHADOW]

Avez vous essayé ? de mettre une came pour pousser le câble sur le brin allant de D à E de sorte à avoir un mouvement dans le plan Z pour monter et descendre le poids.
Came "cloche" fixée sur le poteau.

Have you tried? to put a cam to push the cable on the strand going from D to E so that there is movement in the Z plane to raise and lower the weight.
Cam "bell" fixed on the pole.

[johannesbender]

Bonjour JB,
Nous utilisons le therme de premier moteur pour fixer l'idée sur laquelle nous réfléchissons.
Il se peut qu'il y ait plusieurs moteurs de sorte qu'ils apportent cycliquement le transfert d'énergie nécessaire aux réarmements.
Il se peut que ce ne soit qu'un ensemble interconnecté.

En pièce jointe mon idée d'hélicoïde dite moi si vous y trouvez une portance négative?

Hello JB,
We use the first engine therm to fix the idea we are thinking about.
There may be several motors so that they cyclically provide the energy transfer needed for rearmament.
It may be just an interconnected set.

In attachment my idea of helical tells me if you find a negative lift?

My advice , the image as drawn , if to be build as drawn , has a lift problem at 6 to 9.

[johannesbender]

Avez vous essayé ? de mettre une came pour pousser le câble sur le brin allant de D à E de sorte à avoir un mouvement dans le plan Z pour monter et descendre le poids.
Came "cloche" fixée sur le poteau.

Have you tried? to put a cam to push the cable on the strand going from D to E so that there is movement in the Z plane to raise and lower the weight.
Cam "bell" fixed on the pole.

No Shadow i have not tried anything actually , this was just an example , even if the dropping mass was on a different thing that would not affect the COM of the wheel - it would still need lifting or restoration which is not free.

[SHADOW]

Je viens de comprendre ce vous appelez portance!

I just understand what you call lift!

[Fletcher]

I believe the meaning of the "Prime Mover" as Bessler may have used it could have changed or has gotten an additional interpretation over the years , i think Bessler named his whole machine the "prime mover" and not specifically a sub entity or part of that whole machine , i think it is a sub title we have given to a sub entity or part of a whole machine due to interpretations stemming mainly from MT15 , and perhaps there are two ways of interpreting it instead of just one.

No. 15: This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensions are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the external ends.

From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's [ " primum movens " ] source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the superior weight.

However if look at AP for clarity , it would seem to me , that the "Prime Mover" as we commonly refer to around here could perhaps not be the one and same as what Bessler was referring to , Bessler can be quoted calling his wheel the Primus Mobile and the Perpetuum Mobile synonymously (depends on your interpretation too) , it is my believe due to these words of Bessler himself and the meaning of Primum Mobile as follows :

noun: primum mobile
1.the most important source of motion or action.
2.(in the medieval version of the Ptolemaic system) an outer sphere supposed to move round the earth in twenty-four hours carrying the inner spheres with it.

Origin from medieval Latin, literally ‘first moving thing’.

... I believe Bessler referred and named his device/wheel/machine the Primum Mobile because it was the "first moving thing" invented , as in the first self moving device , and he added to this name also the name of Perpetuum Mobile because not only was it the first self moving thing it also moved other things along with it too and should supposedly move itself without intervention and for as long as nothing breaks or goes wrong.

If however its interpreted as a part and not a whole , then the following quote in particular is quite odd.

Here we can find a couple of examples quoted from AP in his own words : examples of the name Primum Mobile, Perpetuum Mobile.

... So it would appear to me that the Prime Mover or Primum Mobile could have been meant to be a name given to his wheel as a whole and which gives a different meaning to MT15 , however we have interpreted the meaning as something else in particular as a part of the machine and it could be either one or the other , and i mean no disrespect or to stir trouble because it is acceptable for people to create names and attach them to something , but i believe the original meaning could perhaps be misinterpreted and that the alternative should also be known about , and therefor this is why i posted this .

Hi jb .. no one would take offense at your thoughts on the matter .. I'll put the case for a separate entity argument ..

We can probably all agree that the LATIN ' Primum Mobile ' and ' Perpetuum Mobile ' are in Latin nouns ( naming words ) - and because they are written in Latin they can not be verbs or adjectives .. so it is a name he has given to his runners ( self-moving wheels ) ..

fwiw, in AP he calls them Primum Mobile and Perpetuum Mobile, but mostly just plain " Mobile " ( at about a 10 to 1 ratio for Mobile ) ..

And if he had used the nouns of either Primum Mobile or Perpetuum Mobile in his secret document we call MT then we would instantly recognize that he is referring to a whole self-moving wheel ( first mover, or primary mover, or forever mover ) in MT15 notes ..

But he actually says in MT15 the one-time phrase " primum movens " which is also a Latin noun translating to first/primary mover ..

Here's what ChatGPT says when I asked it ..

..The Latin phrase primum movens translates into English as "first mover."

..This phrase is closely related to primum mobile but has a slightly different emphasis:

..Primum mobile ("first moved") refers to something that is set in motion and transmits movement (e.g., the outermost sphere in medieval cosmology).

..Primum movens ("first mover") refers to the entity or force that initiates motion, often used in Aristotelian and theological contexts to describe God as the ultimate cause of all motion.

Imo, if we think of primum movens as the exact same thing as primum mobile or perpetuum mobile then it would be a name for the entire wheel as you say ( and he could just have said mobile or primum mobile etc ) - but then he would have said that " nothing of the "first/primary mover" source ( mine .. of ??? ) can be seen or deduced " - source of what ? - force, initiating motion ?

Whether we think he named and referred to the whole wheel ( primum movens instead of primum mobile) or a sub entity or force to provide the initial motion we still have the exact same problem - we can clearly see that the 3 types of overbalancing weight systems required lifting to supply continuous/everlasting overbalance torque from gravity - how they were easily lifted into those "highly unnatural " positions is the big unanswered question we all struggle with - that needed a mechanical intervention to first move them into position and that's why many thought it was a completely different noun for a specific sub-entity within a primum/perpetuum mobile to provide the initial motion ..

As I said, either way the same problem is still there !