Was Johann Bessler a fraudster?

[johannesbender]

I have read a couple of times where people who call it fraud say that it is easily doable in a fraudulent manner , yet its a very un-scientific approach they tend to take on the matter , since none until today that i am aware off - have build and showcased their easily doable fraudulent device for everyone to see instead of just writing words. (and i don't mean to take parts here , but its a dodgy approach at best)

[Roxaway59]

That's what I've always said JB that if someone calls the demonstrations fraudulent then they should demonstrate how it was done by reproducing it.

It isn't enough to just call it fraud with no way of explaining it.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

When I started this topic I did so thinking that it would be useful to challenge the Bessler story in the hope of making it more obvious that the story was true and that his machine was a true over unity device.

As things progressed however a curious thing happened and I found myself beginning to doubt the story when I thought about how close it might possibly collapse were it not for certain key elements that maybe there was an answer to.

Because when you take parts of the story some parts are open to fakery and the ability to make money from it in the same fashion that known scams have been committed which then leads on to how maybe he managed to keep the fakery going in the later tests.

The thing is, under normal circumstances a scam is like a house of cards and because its based on fakery it usually doesn’t take much scrutiny before it comes crashing down. With the Bessler story though no one has ever been able to prove any fakery.

What set Bessler apart from these scammers was his ability to repeatedly raise the bar to demonstrate that against all the odds his wheel would still work even when the critics requirements were met.

As I said earlier -

One thing I read recently is that during those last tests the adjoining rooms were inspected to make sure there was no fraud.

I don't recall reading that before so I don't know if that is true.

If its true then that makes fraud even less likely than before.

If true, and maybe someone else can confirm it then fraud by Bessler working alone is very unlikely.

If fraud was committed then the only way I could envisage it is if Karl himself and others were in on it. (This does not seem plausible to me.)

Even then it wouldn't explain how the wheel still worked after being moved.

Its time to go back to the basics because although this topic failed to bring up any new incites it has reminded me about why it is that the story of Johann Bessler has endured and it has also reminded me that whilst it is ok to question beliefs the person who sits on the fence ends up with splinters where he would rather not have them.

Graham

[daxwc]

Roxway59:If fraud was committed then the only way I could envisage it is if Karl himself and others were in on it. (This does not seem plausible to me.)

A king, faced with the realization that he has been victimized; perhaps deceived or manipulated, might find it more prudent to conceal the matter rather than expose it. The reputation of a monarch is tightly bound to their ability to project authority, wisdom, and invulnerability. Admitting to being outwitted could be perceived as a failure of judgment, potentially diminishing their stature in the eyes of their subjects, court, and allies.

In such a scenario, the king might choose to quietly dismiss or bury the issue to avoid scandal. Publicly addressing the victimization could invite ridicule, dissent, or even political challenges. By "shoving it under the rug," the king preserves the facade of infallibility and maintains order within their realm.

[Roxaway59]

Those were times when people high up did not dismiss the notion of an over unity device unlike today.

Unfortunately that means that because he had no reason to dismiss it Karl was open to being scammed.

We will never know what Bessler showed him or how it was demonstrated but what ever it was he believed it was an over unity device so the rest is just down to speculation.

We can take things presented by Bessler in isolation and explain it in a down to earth way but take it out of isolation and then problems emerge.

For example a six foot man could have been stood in and operated the 12 foot wheel. If you calculate it you will find that it takes about 8 medium steps for one revolution of the wheel.

Sounds reasonable but then you have the problem of the sealed room.

It is also possible for a four foot person / child to stand sideways in his 9 foot wheel.

All this is speculation but there are no real answers.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

I thought pepper was sprinkled in the wheel, to eliminate the very serious suggestion that Bessler would have someone in the wheel turning it.

[Roxaway59]

I would of thought lack of air and too much Co2 might have been more of a problem.

Graham

[johannesbender]

The space that left open in between the framework would not be fitting for a human.

[Robinhood46]

Even if you could have squeezed a human through the gap, you wouldn't have got his lunchbox through it, not for the 54 day test.

[Roxaway59]

JB / Robinhood, when it comes to someone doing something fraudulent we have to stick with what is actually humanly possible.

It is possible for certain people with medical conditions to be inside the 9 foot wheel. Some people are born with very small heads for example.

It is also possible for someone to be in the 12 foot wheel and to store enough food and water in it to last 54 days. The logistics of doing this are another matter.

I should make it clear at this point for anyone who is wondering that I am not sat on the fence on this because the idea that Bessler was fraudulent does not work because nothing really fits with the known facts so Bessler is innocent until proven guilty.

Graham

[johannesbender]

Just for a laugh , years ago there was a group of people if i remember correct that did a play/act with fictional wheel that showed a man that would climb inside , however if i remember correct this wheel they made was very thick , then also years ago there was a fictional video with a chest that was dug up and opened which contained documents and fake artifacts , people in germany tend to play around with the story of Bessler some times .

But i dont think a human could fit inside , imo the diameter of the large wheel is not an issue its the thickness that is the issue , if you take in to account the framework then there is not much thickness available for a person and some supporting structure for the person to stand/sit/lay on which also would allow to drive the wheel , even if it was a child there would be no real comfortable space to occupy the individual and the structure to support him and drive the wheel .

Not to mention bathroom breaks , food , water , exhaustion , muscle cramps , energy exertion , cold or hot conditions , blood flow problems , sleep issues etc

[Roxaway59]

JB wrote -

But i dont think a human could fit inside , imo the diameter of the large wheel is not an issue its the thickness that is the issue , if you take in to account the framework then there is not much thickness available for a person and some supporting structure for the person to stand/sit/lay on which also would allow to drive the wheel , even if it was a child there would be no real comfortable space to occupy the individual and the structure to support him and drive the wheel .

Not to mention bathroom breaks , food , water , exhaustion , muscle cramps , energy exertion , cold or hot conditions , blood flow problems , sleep issues etc

I realize that we could debate this forever but because I don't think this is what Bessler did either I will just say this.

Going off the drawings its looks like the wheel was wide enough for a small person to be inside if the sides of the wheel are thin enough / constructed correctly.

I've got no intentions of proving this because I don't think its what he did.

I am basing it on some of the ratios in the drawings.

Because not a lot is known about the last test its possible that anyone inside the wheel did not remain inside and came out.

Personally I am not one who likes to speculate to much and we just have to except that the reality of that test could be vastly different than what we are thinking.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Just one more thing about this.

Illusionist tricks like the sawing of a person in half work because its hard for people to imagine another person cramming themselves into such a small space.

The performers who do this have special abilities like being able to dislocate their limbs.

Graham

[SHADOW]

J'ai trouvé la fraude:
c'est la caisse 22 qui fait tourner la roue! :<)

I found the fraud:
it is the box 22 that turns the wheel! : <)

[Robinhood46]

Well spotted Shadow.
We can at last give up and get started on that time machine.