Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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Gregory
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Gregory »

I hear you Gregory - one way is to work with the fundamental Laws of Motion and try to set one against another causing a selective stalemate or nulling that results in some unseen force imbalance advantage - to me, if that could be done, then that would invalidate those Laws of Motion and demote them to back to Theories of Motion ( down from a Law ) because a physical arrangement could be demonstrated to mathematically disprove at least one Law .. I would class that approach as finding a physical workaround to the Laws of Motion ..

My hypothesis also attempts to find a physical workaround, but not to the Laws of Motion per se - but to cause continuing asymmetric imbalance conditions by actually working within the Laws of Motion principally to return conditions of Conservation Of Energy ( COE ) and Conservation of Momentums ..
Right, I think this is not a straightforward Forest to go for hunting...
What would happen if somebody found a strange loop/exception within the current laws?
IMO this is more like normal scientific evolution, like we had a path of... Galilei / Kepler--> Newton / Leibniz --> Maxwell, Riemann, Lorentz, Minkowski, Einstein ... and so on, you could call up a dozen more great scientist.
So, if something new is found then there will be some extension, reframing, or correction to one or more of the laws and we will arrive at a better, more completed model. But after all, at the basics most of the things would remain unchanged, so I don't think this would mean a big crash or a "hard invalidation", like everything goes out of the window... But I admit, this is something very hard to see through or predict without the actual data and analysis...
I have taken great pains to map out a potential path between a runners acceleration and work output to an ambient source of motion that could theoretically be tapped and transformed into that wheel-work at the expense of the earth's momentum .. at the same time work within Newton's Laws of Motion .. I have taken it as far as I am willing too go without going further down the rabbit-hole and well out of my pay grade ..

My task next week will be to build a sim of the swingers setting into torque and rotational motion with a vertical linear input of force ( the bounce factor ) - to do that I will probably just use a fake repeating force and spring assembly to bounce and recover the whole-of-wheel GPE etc - this should prove beyond reasonable doubt ( if it works as I anticipate ) that a linear force input can be outputted as rotational motion ..

Then I anticipate looking again at the A-Prime morphing exercise as a physical replacement for the fake force input above - and hopefully showing again that it is robust and efficient with some interesting GPE outcomes that can perhaps be exploited to an advantage ..

** Ultimately linking it back too the theory of "Raising GPE without using Law of Levers" to mechanically arrange a very rapid wheel acceleration and self-moving wheel scenario, whilst meeting the COE mandate ..

Your imagination and inputs, and discussion, always welcome ..
Yeah, it's always a great pain to come up with something new, or something which might have a shot at a greater goal... But hey, you're arriving somewhere. Even if it turns out to be not enough, it's still a good amount of useful insights, deeper understanding...

On the sidenote... I think you should not focus too much on acceleration first, if you can make a gain, however tiny it is, that would already mean an extraordinary solution.

I still have an unfinished swinger wheel idea/sim. This might show you some new ways to think/learn about, or invoke some new inspiration. It contains a beautiful movement, I will post it once it's completed. Just feeling distracted/unmotivated lately.
Last edited by Gregory on Sun May 11, 2025 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Fletcher »

Gregory wrote:
Right, I think this is not a straightforward Forest to go for hunting...

What would happen if somebody found a strange loop/exception within the current laws?

IMO this is more like normal scientific evolution, like we had a path of... Galilei / Kepler--> Newton / Leibniz --> Maxwell, Riemann, Lorentz, Minkowski, Einstein ... and so on, you could call up a dozen more great scientist.

So, if something new is found then there will be some extension, reframing, or correction to one or more of the laws and we will arrive at a better, more completed model. But after all, at the basics most of the things would remain unchanged, so I don't think this would mean a big crash or a "hard invalidation", like everything goes out of the window... But I admit, this is something very hard to see through or predict without the actual data and analysis...

There are 2 possibilities, and you address the case of something new found not covered in the current Laws of Motion - the other possibility is that nothing new is found and all is adequately explained and covered by the existing Laws of Motion ..

I would say standing here today at ground zero ( without a physical runner to study ), that trying to look forward and deduce and map out how a runner can accelerate and do Work is One Thousand times harder than looking backwards after the fact and deciding whether a new loop or exception in the Laws was actually needed and plucked from the math, or that looking back it fitted within the existing Laws framework - hindsight is always 20/20 - but I resist jumping to a conclusion that there must be some new unknown loop or exception within current Laws - if there is an exception then it ain't a Law ! ..



.. Yeah, it's always a great pain to come up with something new, or something which might have a shot at a greater goal... But hey, you're arriving somewhere. Even if it turns out to be not enough, it's still a good amount of useful insights, deeper understanding...


On the sidenote... I think you should not focus too much on acceleration first, if you can make a gain, however tiny it is, that would already mean an extraordinary solution.

Hey, I'm not greedy lol .. I would take any mechanical solution to a runner even if that turns out only a small and steady acceleration ( i.e. positive torque surplus ) - generically, once a principle is found and exposed to scrutiny then like you said earlier others will no doubt optimize it and improve the outcomes, reliability, and efficiency - part of that process is to identify the variables and critical inputs and build a matrix of sensitivity, and power for dimensional size, energy density, etc - it's called an evolutionary and survival of the fittest process ..


I still have an unfinished swinger wheel idea/sim. This might show you some new ways to think/learn about, or invoke some new inspiration. It contains a beautiful movement, I will post it once it's completed. Just feeling distracted/unmotivated lately.

Know the feeling lol .. perspective, theoretically daily life and family take precedence over my hobby, tho sometimes that can get a bit bent out of shape - I've been having at this mental challenge so long that the prospect of any runner Mechanics and Physics being unmasked ( by anyone ) is going to need some time of personal adjustment - so easy on the gas, and on the brake - smooth is fast ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Mon May 12, 2025 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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Harking back to your mentioning of " IMO this is more like normal scientific evolution, like we had a path of... Galileo / Kepler--> Newton / Leibniz --> Maxwell, Riemann, Lorentz, Minkowski, Einstein ... and so on, you could call up a dozen more great scientist."

I always found it more than curious that B. could hardly not be aware of Newton's Laws ( 1687 ) - he mentions others of repute in his books - he writes the English word " force " in MT - he also writes in MT " motion " and " movement " - so he is familiar with the scientific jargon of force etc in England, and Europe to a degree - he certainly understands the scientific Latin that is universal ..

But he never calls out Newton or his Laws - he never mentions him, or them, iinm ..

Furthermore Karl says emphatically that it was so simple that he was surprised that no one else before Bessler had thought of the same mechanical solution to a runner - imo the inference ( to me ) being that it was a relatively simple mechanical arrangement of parts that had Classical Mechanics components that should be generally familiar and of unsurprising actions to others ( but not seen before in B's. combination ) ..
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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Fletcher wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 2:34 am I always found it more than curious that B. could hardly not be aware of Newton's Laws ( 1687 ) - he mentions others of repute in his books - he writes the English word " force " in MT - he also writes in MT " motion " and " movement " - so he is familiar with the scientific jargon of force etc in England, and Europe to a degree - he certainly understands the scientific Latin that is universal ..

But he never calls out Newton or his Laws - he never mentions him, or them, iinm ..
Maybe he just stayed cautious. Mentioning Newton or his laws of motion, and simultaneously implying that B. himself has something which potentially challenges those laws, etc... doesn't sound like a good idea or tactic. Doing so would result in scientist calling back at B. for proof, either mathematical or empirical. While at the same time B. didn't want to do anything like that before a sale is sealed. But that would put him in a bad position, potentially even more questions, attacks, and reputation problems...
Furthermore Karl says emphatically that it was so simple that he was surprised that no one else before Bessler had thought of the same mechanical solution to a runner - imo the inference ( to me ) being that it was a relatively simple mechanical arrangement of parts that had Classical Mechanics components that should be generally familiar and of unsurprising actions to others ( but not seen before in B's. combination ) ..
Well, there are mainly two possibilities here...

1. Bessler was a trickster, thus fooled Karl and everyone else, and everything Karl saw was just a perfectly orchestrated illusion, a magical eye candy dressed up beautifully, served for Karl.

2. Things can actually look very simple, while the underlying physics/maths might be much more complex, unintuitive, or an incomprehensible rabbit hole entirely. So, Karl could think that it's very simple and he understands it, while the truth was something else, deeper and hidden from the eyes just scanning on the surface.

3. Plus there is also the possibility that even Bessler himself didn't understand it for full on a deeper/deepest level. Which is completely understandable if some parts of the required physics/science understanding didn't existed yet back then. And that's also a possibility...
Last edited by Gregory on Tue May 13, 2025 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by spinner361 »

4. It was easy to understand.
Last edited by spinner361 on Tue May 13, 2025 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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spinner361 wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 9:23 pm 4. It was easy to understand.
True, that's also a possibility! Like you're swear to yourself: how simple is that, how I couldn't figure it out?

But I think usually this 4. can also be a 2., once it is analysed on a deeper level. Like a spinning top standing up or a pendulum swinging looks childishly simple on the surface, but there is more behind the curtain when analysed carefully, in more detail.
Last edited by Gregory on Wed May 14, 2025 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by spinner361 »

I think that most people do not have to go through a physics analysis to understand something simple. I agree that the physics analysis will go deeper than casual observation.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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Gregory wrote:
Maybe he ( B. ) just stayed cautious. Mentioning Newton or his laws of motion, and simultaneously implying that B. himself has something which potentially challenges those laws, etc... doesn't sound like a good idea or tactic. Doing so would result in scientist calling back at B. for proof, either mathematical or empirical. While at the same time B. didn't want to do anything like that before a sale is sealed. But that would put him in a bad position, potentially even more questions, attacks, and reputation problems...
Gregory wrote:Well, there are mainly two possibilities here...

1. Bessler was a trickster, thus fooled Karl and everyone else, and everything Karl saw was just a perfectly orchestrated illusion, a magical eye candy dressed up beautifully, served for Karl.

2. Things can actually look very simple, while the underlying physics/maths might be much more complex, unintuitive, or an incomprehensible rabbit hole entirely. So, Karl could think that it's very simple and he understands it, while the truth was something else, deeper and hidden from the eyes just scanning on the surface.

3. Plus there is also the possibility that even Bessler himself didn't understand it for full on a deeper/deepest level. Which is completely understandable if some parts of the required physics/science understanding didn't existed yet back then. And that's also a possibility...
I can apply a bit of human psychology here .. what is a simple motivation for their actions, or lack of, in these instances ?

I think of it as a tale of 3 very wise men ..

1. Karl was imo wise because he said just enough to others familiar with the runner demonstrations .. just enough to confirm that the Merseburg and Kassel wheels were simple and easy to understand once seen inside, and by also saying he was surprised no one else before B. had thought of the same mechanical solution, implying there was no entirely surprising or new mechanics - I say wise because he must have known exactly where to draw the line in the sand that if he were to cross would have undermined his agreement with B. and called his honour into question - so he stopped short ..

2. Bessler was imo wise because he did not take on Newton or his Laws - as you say perhaps to not invite a public spat which would escalate into calls to provide empirical or mathematical proof of claims that the Laws were incomplete or wrong ( a fight he couldn't win until after a sale, if B. believed that to be the case ) ..

OR, more likely imo .. he didn't call out Newton and his Laws because they weren't wrong or incomplete as far as he could see ! .. to do so for publicity reasons or spruiking before a sale would be raising a false flag and after a sale could be shot down in flames once the mathematicians had at it and potentially severely diminish his reputation and legacy - so he wisely didn't go there ..

3. Newton was imo also a wise man because he knew of the runners existence and the tests but had no first hand personal experience with them - he also knew his Laws and their ground work backwards and forwards - without an interior mechanism and mechanics to study in action he was in no position to call out Bessler and Karl, for fraud or otherwise - better to stay emotionally detached and stumm on the sidelines until the inner workings were known ..
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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I am of the opinion he knew and understood newtons laws very well , it could be possible that he had Newtons laws in mind when he wrote this , because it is a direct addition to the name of what we refer to as the laws of motion today , although i don't know what they were referred to back then in the 17 century though , it could just also have been innocent and just a name he came up with , i don't know if this is actually word for word the same as the german .

"The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way that weights applied in accordance with the laws of
Perpetual Motion, work, once a small impressed force has caused the commencement of movement, to perpetuate the
said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely" - pg 191

Someone who comes up with the name laws of pm , should in theory fully understand the fundamentals of said actions to be able to apparently devise laws , and produce consistent real world results via builds .
Last edited by johannesbender on Thu May 15, 2025 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

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iinm , " a priori " in the DT Latin and German ..

......................

Interesting article - add more fluid / weight to the suspended beaker and the linkage ( <> ) length get shorter, not longer ..

https://newatlas.com/physics/countersna ... led-amolf/
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by johannesbender »

Fletcher wrote: Thu May 15, 2025 8:48 pm iinm , " a priori " in the DT Latin and German ..

......................

Interesting article - add more fluid / weight to the suspended beaker and the linkage ( <> ) length get shorter, not longer ..

https://newatlas.com/physics/countersna ... led-amolf/
Sounds plausible and more believable than publicly stating "laws of PM" for everyone to read i guess , i can only imagine how many would have taken offence at it.

As for the mechanical linkage , seems nice i suppose it would need a restoration energy again in the other direction (extra).
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Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by daxwc »

That is interesting; Thanks for posting Fletcher.
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