Apologia Poetica Translation

[fAtnhapy]

Did I miss something Ralph? I layed it out using a 2" dia cone. It can rotate more than once. :0)
fAt

[rlortie]

fAt,

No, you did not miss anything, I did. by using an average circumfrence of one turn. I hope you do not miss the angle spreading degree for to revs.

Ralph

[fAtnhapy]

No I have the angle and will make the spacing at both ends adjustable. As I see it I only need to make one segment (pair) with the proper radius on the side opposite the cone (in my case 12") lay it on a flat level surface and place the cone on the low end. If the cone rolls to the other end and falls off rocking the segment as it goes it should work the same way if fixed into my the wheel. If not.....not...:0)
Agree?
fAt

[jim_mich]

Just an example...
Assume that the wheel is 36 inch (working) Diameter, 18 inch radius.
Assume that the dual-cone roller is 6 inch Diameter, 3 inch radius, any length.
Assume that the wheel runs at 20 RPM.
Assume that the ramp keeps the roller axis always at 15 inch radius from wheel axis.
Looking from the side, the roller OD appears to always touch the wheel working diameter.
The number of ramps is optional.
The cones taper from the 6 inch roller OD down to 1 inch diameter at the ends of the roller.

Think of the roller as like a planet gear rolling inside a ring gear, except no teeth.

Code: Select all

Cone  Wheel  Gear   Roller  Roller   Degrees per
Dia.  Dia.   Ratio  RPM     Circum.  Roller Rev.
-----------------------------------------------------------
6"    36"    1:6    120     18.85    60.00
5"    35"    1:7    140     15.71    51.43
4"    34"    1:8.5  170     12.57    42.35
3"    33"    1:11   220     9.42     32.73
2"    32"    1:16   320     6.28     22.50
1"    31"    1:31   620     3.14     11.61

Two problems...

The roller will rotate one speed at the ramp start with the rails close together and another speed at the ramp end with the rails apart.

The shape of the ramp curve needs to be calculated correctly else the roller will roll 'up and down' hill. Which might not be so bad? I believe that patent that I mentioned stated this would cause the train to be propelled along.

[fAtnhapy]

No teeth? We'd have to name it Ralph!!! :0)
Why do you see the speeding up and slowing down as a problem? Or do you mean a problem as far as a variable in your calculations?
I have seen that train. I think they reset the cone higher whenever the train went down hill storing power for the next uphill climb. One would think with a route with equal ups and downs that would be a pretty efficient train.
fAt

[rlortie]

Problem 1.

The cone will change speed in relation to changing radius but wheel will remain constant. Example: Railroad wheels with fixed wheel to axle going around a curve, outside wheel travels farther but at same speed as inner. How; wheels are cone shaped and walk up the track on the outside by CF. Outside becomes larger, inner smaller. Cone will speed up as it gets smaller but this action will also increase torque delivered as center of mass is approached.

I believe that any intermittent velocity changes in the wheel will be negligible not unlike a flywheel.

Problem 2.

Shape of ramp could be flat and level. It is the angle of the rail separation that is of importance. I do not think that the term ramp really need apply, it is the intricate part of the wheel and not the cone. The description of a ring gear without teeth,or Jonathans reference to the GIT is more fitting. I will refer to them as rails in the future.

True I have teeth that can be stored in a glass on the night stand. although they never are. So I do not think Ralph would be a fitting name. On the other hand "Fat Boy" has already been used also. How about a GERD for Gravity Energized Revolving Device. :)

Ralph

[fAtnhapy]

LOL, actually the "toothless fAtboy wheel" kind of has a ring to it!
In the process of laying out the concept I was saddled to some extent to trying to keep the design of the rails within the confines of my pre-existing wheel which happens to be 24". The rails must present an angle low enough to allow the cone to climb and the high and low ends have to be made where the cone can make the transition from one rail assembly to the next. These restrictions would not be present except in the testing stage where I desire to use the existing wheel but for the moment to meet all the requirements it was necessary to employ the arc. If the cone will not climb the arc on the test piece sitting on a flat level surface but can be made to with a different radius I suppose I will be faced with scaling up my test wheel. Meanwhile I have made an executive decision to temper my disappointment if the wheel runs but speeds up and slows down a bit! :0)
fAt

[SeaWasp]

JMHO... I wouldn't bother with the rpm of the main wheel! Rather the revs of the rolling cone weight. If this can be made to work, I don't think the rollng cone would impart a great many rpm's or torque to the main wheel! But the rolling cone could be tapped into to drive a dynamo etc. I would also be concerned with the rolling cone maintaining it's position at all times to either the left or right axes, (depending on rotation). The track would have to be adjusted to suit this range of travel. If the cone gets, "left behind" the wrong axis, it would impart a negative, counter torque to the wheel, and ultimately the wheel will try to settle with the weight at it's lowest position. This may make the ramp a little too steep for the cone to continue rolling "up" and so it will not continue. I guess that this is where the ratio of the wheel and cone must be figured out correctly as well as the rate of opening of the ramp. All in all a very interesting concept!

Good luck with the build!

[fAtnhapy]

While I'm waiting on the rails to be machined I started sketching around now here is a prime example of what can happen to your brain if you work on this too long! LOL
fAt

[rlortie]

fAt,

I am cross eyed and wear trifocals. And a lot of it is from looking at designs such as this one.

Take it from an old die hard and save some time. It will not work! to close to to many failures. With or with out the cone/rail concept the end result will be the same.

Ralph

[fAtnhapy]

Who said it would work? LOL
fAt

[rlortie]

fAt,

Meanwhile I have made an executive decision to temper my disappointment if the wheel runs but speeds up and slows down a bit

With a 2" cone weight, I do not think you are going to see much pulsating in the wheel. Make it as heavy as possible without overloading the axis bearings, then balance it. The heavier the better, If still not satisfied add a "V" belt and pulley to a flywheel via a sprague clutch.

fAt, I would like to practice what I preach. How do you feel about moving this to its own thread? After all we are on Apologia Poetica, and I do not think what we are discussing is related. It is your call! I like "Toothless Fatboy" for a name.

SeaWasp,

JMHO... I wouldn't bother with the rpm of the main wheel! Rather the revs of the rolling cone weight. If this can be made to work, I don't think the rollng cone would impart a great many rpm's or torque to the main wheel!

The revs of the cone weight are irrelevant and will not add torque to the main wheel. It is the weight itself and rail incline that builds the torque in the wheel. The faster the weight travels the ramp will set the rpm of the wheel. Yes the cone will speed up and slow down on each set of rails, but that speed is set by radius of cone and will not effect wheel speed which should remain fairly constant. Another way to say it is, as the cone radius diminishes it turns faster but it is covering the same amount of rail.

Ralph

[fAtnhapy]

Ralph, another thread is fine with me... providing I get invited! :0) I hate getting ditched.....
My wheel has a 3/4 dia axel mounted in pillow block (guess where I got 3/4) so it will bear a good deal of load. The framwork is alum. with 1/2 dia. ground stainless rods about the perifery to hang things on and tie the front and back together. The 2" dia weight is just for testing the concept I realize it will give me a disadvantage at the wheel pull. I can make it as long as I want for now.
I do think ultimately the rpm of the cone will have some bearing on performance. It would amount to stored up angular momentum that could be used to touch an ID surface and get some propultion or more likely aid in keeping the cone climbing and perhaps further from center than it would be rolling of it's on volution. As it nears the tip of the cone it could wind up pretty good. Let me know where you move us! :0)
fAt

[rlortie]

fAt,

You will find Toothless Fatboy under community Buzz. See you there, I will open a thread.

Good Bye AP you have been very considerate, and I thank you for your patience.

Toothless

[rlortie]

In order to get this topic back on subject matter I just happened to run into a word I can not crack. Can anyone give me a translation for
"vouchsafed"

Thanks in advance,

Ralph